From a Zoominar with Ramji on February 7, 2021
Marie: Could you expand on the topic of self-injurious thoughts? I find that at times, thoughts come up of embarrassment or self-deprecation of some sort. I know Isvara puts those thoughts in front of me; yet, they come with the negative emotion, so they can be rather unpleasant. I also understand that I am not the doer and never was, but at times when these thoughts “blip” in front of me, it feels morally incorrect to abandon their ownership (like I’m doing the Vedanta shuffle, getting off easy). What are the best steps (step by step) I can take when these thoughts come up, so I can recondition my mind?
Ramji: It is the easy way! Oh, I see. You mean you feel guilty for not taking responsibility, is that it?
Marie: Yes. I want to make sure I am not taking a shortcut I shouldn’t by doing some Vedanta shuffle.
Ramji: But you are supposed to take the Vedanta shuffle! That’s the whole point of Isvara! But, why do you want to own these thoughts?
Marie: I thought the Vedanta shuffle meant my identity is with the doer, and so I am rather faking that my identity is with the Self. Like the “blip” (a thought of self-deprecation arising out of the blue) brings my identity in back to my doer.
Ramji: Yes, sure. No, no, no, no. It’s not doing what is right. You can shuffle this problem back to Isvara because, as you said, they are not your thoughts! But you won them. Now, why are you owning thoughts that belong to Isvara? That’s called the jiva shuffle: you are shuffling from the Self down to the jiva and you want to own the jiva’s problems! But how can you own the jiva’s problems if you didn’t create them!
Marie: Yeah. You know, Ramji, there are two things: there is the thought that occurs now, as a memory of some event of some time ago, and there is the sense of, well, I was that person, I was that doer back then. So, it’s almost two things. I don’t know if I’m being clear enough. But I know I have to abandon both. But I think it’s really two things, the thought that “blips” on, and the sense that I was that person that did that back then. I am now thinking something self-deprecating about it, but I was that person.
Ramji: Ok, but why do you take a stand as that person? Why do you want who you are to become that person? That’s called the jiva shuffle, ok? That’s not the Advaita shuffle, that’s the ignorant shuffle, you are shuffling back to ignorance! And you are saying “well, I should feel guilty!” The problems is the shoulds. Right? If you look at it from the Self’s point of view, if you are the Self obviously those aren’t your thoughts.
Marie: That’s true. That’s true.
Ramji: And those guilty thoughts and all those thoughts, did you actually create those thoughts, or were those thoughts dumped on you by your parents and the society?
Marie: Those thoughts come up to me by Isvara. They just pop up like popcorn kernels.
Ramji: Yes, I know! That’s right! You didn’t sit down and think “Oh, I need a bunch of guilty thoughts to be happy.” People just dump them on you when you were a kid. And you read the newspapers, and you watched the movies, and you did all these things, and you believed this stuff, you absorbed it, and then that becomes part of your personality.
Marie: But back then, when I did that event, how do I apply Vedanta to that. Because, to me it is clearer that thoughts come up uninvited.
Ramji: There is no “back then.” You see? Right now, here, you are going to the thought in your mind that there is a back then. Where is the back then?
Marie: Yes, it is another thought.
Ramji: Yes, you are sitting in your kitchen talking to me in Spain about dharma. There is no back then. This is here and now. We are right here, now. And what happened before only happened because we think it happened. But it didn’t happen then. It is only happening now as a thought.
Marie: But, at one point, that was a now-moment.
Ramji: Yes, at one point. But is that now-moment now?
Marie: No.
Ramji: I’m telling you something different. This is the now-moment now. So, don’t forget this now-moment. If you need the past, then, when this conversation is over, then make this your now-moment and stay in this now-moment. Because it’s just knowledge! You are way too conscientious. You are too guilty. You learned to be guilty. I think you like being guilty.
Marie: Yikes!
Ramji: Are you catholic? You were probably catholic, hu?
Marie: I was born catholic, but I’ve been a Buddhist for 15 years before Vedanta.
Ramji: They are all about that: you have to be a better person. “You have to be a better person”, which means they are telling you “you are not a good person now” so you have to keep always being better. They are just like the catholics. There is a big nexus between the catholism and Christianity. They are right together, because they both have this notion that there is something wrong with you innately, and the only way you are going to get over that is by being good. Now, what we are saying is this: Where is the evidence that you are a bad person? Where is the evidence? That’s what we are saying. Can you look around right now, just thinking about yourself right now, can you look around and find any evidence that there is anything wrong with you?
Marie: I never find a person outside of the thought of a person, and I’ve looked.
Ramji: Yes! There is nothing wrong with anybody when you look! But you have to stay alert. You have to stay present. You have to stay in the now. Every moment should be a now-moment. And you should be alert and looking to see if it is true. That’s our whole problem in society in America. You have thirty-five or forty percent of the people are not interested in the truth. They don’t want to look. Why do I think there is cabal of evil democratic pedofiles molesting? Why do I believe that? I’ve never seen it. It isn’t happening around me. And there isn’t any evidence whatsoever. Why do I believe the election was stolen? There is no evidence! People have just gotten to where they only believe what they think. And they don’t investigate “But where did I get these notions? Did they come actually from me?”
This whole thing about dharma is about maintaining your alertness, the sattva, and investigating all the time, looking to say “hey, is this true? Is this really true?” And even if it was true once, that’s ok, fine. But that’s not true now. It’s never true now.
Obviously, and the whole thing about upasana yoga, rather than trying to fix the problem, you just do what’s right, having this ideal, in other words, trying to live up to the dharma. Trying to manage your behavior and your actions so they reflect who you really are as best you can is going to transform your personality. But you are not doing it because there is something wrong with your personality. You are doing it because it is right, because you are only interested in the truth. So, it’s not the same as trying to fix yourself. Your self gets fixed, but the one who did the problem is not the one to fix the problem. Is it? So you see yourself differently. When Krishna came (Krishna was a fully realized person), he said “I don’t have anything to gain by doing this, but I serve the society 24/7.” And then he tells Arjuna “You don’t understand this Self business, but it doesn’t matter. Here is what a karma yogi is; now, be a karma yogi.” And later on, he tells Arjuna “Be an upasana yogi; now, meditate.” In other words, take an identity that has a series of behaviors, a philosophy, a noble idea, a high idea, a true idea, and actions that reinforce that idea, and live that. And then you’ll see that that person who did that back then, that guy, that guy slowly becomes a better person. It’s all in your mind anyway! But you start to like yourself more. You start to feel right about yourself, rather than wrong about yourself, because you are doing the right thing about yourself now. Right? And that eats up the past. With karma you can undo bad karma, you can undo bad dharma. That’s one of the beauties of karma, you can’t get moksa from karma, but you can clean up your messes. You can create new things. You can do all kinds of things with karma. Karma is an amazing power. The power of action is an amazing power.
So, we look at ourselves like “I’m fine. And I want to live who I am. I want my life to reflect who I am. I want be a beautiful reflector of who I really am.” So, that’s what I’m striving to do.
And if there are little mess-ups here and there, so what!? Nobody is perfect. I’m doing my best. At every level, if you do your best, you are clean. That’s the point.
That guilt is a big thing. We call that Maya; that’s original sin. In all these purana stories, the metaphor of archery is there. You probably know what the word “sin” comes from? Sin means to miss the mark. In archery, if you hit the bullseye, you are without sin. You didn’t make a mistake. But if you didn’t hit the bullseye, you sinned, you were off the mark, you weren’t just right, you weren’t right in the center where you are supposed to hit. That’s the idea.
Marie: There is something “sticky” when those thoughts arise that typically is not there.
Ramji: That’s the sign; because, doing what is right, there is nothing sticky. You feel good. You just feel good. You feel right. And whenever you have one of those sticky, greasy, kind of yucky thoughts, it’s because you are missing the mark. In other words, you are not hitting your Self with your mind. Your mind is not going to your Self; it’s going to some part of you that is, you know, imperfect or less than perfect.
Marie: And, so, I could apply the opposite thought right there and say “I’m whole and complete Awareness.”
Ramji: That’s right! That’s right. Absolutely. So you apply the opposite thought. Karma yoga is applying the opposite thought. That’s why it’s a “fake it until you make it”, because it feels like you are faking it because you are so used to thinking there is something wrong with you! So it feels kind of funny: “Oh, I can’t say I’m beautiful! I can’t say I’m ok! I can’t say that! I don’t want to think I’m spiritual! No, no, no. That’s pretentious!”
Dealing with those negative thoughts, those thoughts, that’s the key here. Taking a stand on the opposite thought.
You have our website. You, everybody, has the resources to change your thinking and your lifestyle. Because these negative thoughts get incarnated in your daily rituals. So, do a little penance, do a little tapas, it’s a good thing! I’m not talking about crawling over broken glass on cobble stones or wearing a hair shirt. But some kind of austerity to build confidence in yourself and make your life simple. That is a big help.
Marie: Thank you.
Student: Ramji, I have a question on that. Because it is almost down to earth what you are talking about, because that guilt and shame of the past is hardwired in a lot of people, and it is just right there. And, it’s almost like there is a benefit to the separate self in believing in it and it doesn’t want to give it up. It just doesn’t want to turn it over to Isvara. It doesn’t want to turn it over to God. And it is that stubbornness, the pride.
Ramji: The pride! Absolutely.
Student: The stubbornness, the pride, all of that, and can I accept what’s in front of me and let go. They talk about “Let go and let God.” To surrender, to accept. That’s the hardest thing I see in anybody (in myself, in others), that we just don’t want to give up my will, because I still think there is value there. Yet, the only thing that can fall is what is needed to fall.
Ramji: Yes, what can fall is what is needed to fall. I was lucky; I managed to understand this when I was in my 20s. And it was easy. I couldn’t do this on purpose! I didn’t seek this! I wasn’t trying to do this! It’s not my fault. I didn’t know about God then. I just realized that none of this was my fault! I made all these mistakes but I wasn’t trying to make mistakes. I wasn’t trying to injure myself or other people. I hurt myself and I hurt other people but I thought I’m just torturing myself here with this and I just said “I’m ok!” And I let it go. And, boy! Suddenly, you know, everything was different. The whole world just rearranged. And it just became easy to do that.
I think there is kind of a virtue in suffering. Look at the Christian symbol of Christ. That is kind of noble that he is up there on the cross, all bloody and scarred and in pain. They have validated it to a kind of martir situation. And maybe some people subconsciously think there is some kind of glory in that. But there is not! It is just painful, that’s all. And it’s uncalled for, really.
So, love yourself! Let it go!
Student: Thanks James.
Ramji: You bet. No, I understand! I can talk about it because I’ve been through it. I don’t pretend that I’m pure and perfect or holy or anything like that. I’ve been through it. I know what it is.
This whole thing is taking that negative energy and turning it into a positive spiritual force. That’s called sublimation. It’s converting that negative into something positive and discerning and loving yourself and the world. If you can’t love yourself then start by loving the world, because, in that process, you learn to love yourself. And if you do learn to love yourself, you naturally love the world. Either way, but somehow we have to make this thing into the grist for our mill. It’s what life is about, it’s these negative parts of ourselves transform them into a positive force. And if you look at the Gita, the whole last section on self-actualization is about dharma and character. That’s what it is about. What kind of person is a righteous person? What kind of character do they have? What kind of values? How do they live? How do they walk and eat? What kind of food do they eat? What kind of friends and people do they associate with? How do they give charity? How do they handle money? All those details are worked out there in that part of the Gita.
Student: Ramji, how does Hanuman fit into the story? He was egoless.
Ramji: Bakti! Hanuman is a symbol of bakti. It means you can’t do it without bakti, without faith in the teaching, in the teacher, and in the dharma. You have to work it out but you need the bakti. Ram … needed bakti to go into that part of himself and work it out, root it out. And Sita knows that the only reason why she is not in the clutches of that dark part of herself is because she is thinking of Ram [that is, she has bakti for her Self]. She has total faith in Ram. … When you make bad choices, you go into the lion’s den and you face the demon and you have faith that the dharma will prevail and you do what’s right. You do what you have to do! It is no problem to do what you want to do. It’s doing the things you don’t want to do that shows what your character is. You should want to do what you don’t want to do; that’s the whole point here. In our society, who has that attitude anymore? There is too much wealth. Wealth is killing us. We got “afluenza”; everybody is sick w afluenza. They are lazy, they are convenient. You look at the truth! In the last few years there has been this thing called “alternative facts”. A fact is a fact. There is no “alternative” facts. There is just facts. And now, there are people saying “No, whatever I think is true, is true.” Ok, it’s true for you, but it is not true. Now, how does that happen? in this case, it is a whole part of society who actually think that what they think is true, without any kind of investigation at all. This whole thing has been a moral problem—it’s not a political problem, it’s not a social problem. It’s basically a moral problem. … It is a symbol of this lack of communication within yourself between the dark parts of yourself and the light parts of yourself, between the unreasonable parts of yourself and the reasonable parts of yourself. So, we have a big moral problem here. … Our view is that no matter what is going on around me, I have to keep looking at myself because the more righteous I am, the more righteous my own circle of friends and family become. If enough people can follow that dharma properly, some of it is going to leak out and that will transform the society. That’s the argument in the Gita. So, everybody here is a role model; that’s the point. So, we have to go back and examine that stuff and clean it up if there is going to be any hope, otherwise, we’ll just keep replicating the same thing over and over and over again, and people are just unhappy and frustrated.
Student: [Could you comment on the symbolism in the Ramayana, in terms of the forest where Ram and Site went in exile?]
Ramji: In regards to being exiled to the forest [where Ram and Sita were forced to live after being denied the throne to the kingdom], it means that once you hear the truth, you need to going inside (the forest means inside) and live in the world or wherever it is and work it out. Like Ramana Maharshi went to his cave, or Jesus went to exile for 20 years or so. He had gotten the word of God, applying it to his own situation and purifying himself. There is no special duration for this, it could be just a few years or weeks, days; however long it takes, nobody really knows.
Michael: In the swadharma teachings, you said not to try to live by an ideal or to be someone you’re not, and now you are saying that we should live them. Could you clarify?
Ramji: You should have noble ideals. You should live according to noble ideals. But you shouldn’t ever feel frustrated because you can’t attain those ideals. Why? Because there is nothing ideal about life here except the Self. The only thing that is ideal is your Self. So, you are never going to become perfect. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t live according to my highest ideals, because otherwise what is going to happen to your mind if you don’t? You are going to run off the default setting. In other words, the old patterns will start to come out again unless you have something to strive for. Like in my case, I feel like I will try to help as many people as I can before I die. That’s a good thing to do. It keeps me from thinking about myself, what I would want (not that I want anything, really). And what would I do!? There is much more joy in serving the world and serving everybody than just serving me. I just served myself, I did my sadhana. I went and found out what was needed to know and there was nothing else that I needed to know, so why should I sit around and say I’m enlightened and just sit around and do nothing? No, I have lots of energy. I can’t benefit anymore than knowing who I am, so why I serve you until the day I die? It’s inspiring to do that. It’s enlightening, it’s enlivening.
Don’t ever think that part of you is going to become perfect because you are already perfect. But, there is nothing wrong with you becoming a more beautiful person. There is nothing with that at all. It’s a great thing. And, since so far as you do live in society and are around other people, why shouldn’t you help them!? Because this world is Isvara’s will. It’s not just your will. Isvara wants that, wants you free so that other people be free, so that it keeps that dharma alive. Yes, it does seem like a contradiction, but it’s not actually a contradiction.
Remember, there are two types of thinking: there is dual thinking and nondual thinking. I just wrote a satsang today called Moksa From Moksa. I want freedom from moksa. It’s like, dual thinking is: Separation is real, that you are different from me and I’m different from you. And nondual thinking is that we are all One and that I’m free of ignorance. The question you should ask yourself is: Was I ever bound? Was I ever ignorant? Because the fact is that you never were ignorant, in which case you can’t blame yourself for anything you ever did because you were never ignorant. This is a response also to you Marie. Because if you were ignorant, that’s one thing, and then ok maybe you can take responsibility. But what if you were never ignorant? In other words, what if the notion that I was ignorant isn’t true? We are saying it’s not even true that you were ignorant. You were always the Self. You are eternally the Self. So, I have to get rid of this notion that I was impure or ignorant or unspiritual or bad, because it never actually happened! because that person to whom it belonged was purely a conceptual person. It wasn’t an actual person.
These are some of the subtle things that take place when you start to get spiritually evolved, you start to get advanced spiritually. They don’t come up to beginners, really. Most of you people have been in the spiritual world for a long time. And, these are questions that Vedanta deals with and which are very important topics, that clean out the last kind of residue of ignorance there. In other words, you were never that person!
Student: What is meant by neutralizing a samskara?
Ramji: Taking the samskara as a gift from God, doing your karma yoga, doing janna yoga. That is what neutralizes the samskaras. Seeing the value of the samskaras neutralizes them. As long as you think there is something wrong with you because of those samskaras, you are keeping those samskaras alive. So, you have to see the value in it. That’s what dharma is, seeing the value in what is not valuable and transforming that not-value into a value.
Student: Is sentimentally always a vasana?
Ramji: Yes, sentimentality is always a vasana. Sentiment is beautiful. But sentimentality is not. Sentiment is true feeling, that’s real. Sentimentality is making a story about your feeling. It’s about glorifying a feeling. That’s called sentimental. That’s an abstraction. Pure sentiment, whether it’s good or bad sentiment, it’s fair enough. Like the reason why people liked Trump is because he is authentic, authentic adharmic, but authentic. He is not a sentimental person. If he was sentimental, the people would have been able to manipulate him and make him act presidential, but they couldn’t because he wasn’t sentimental. But, yes, sentimentality is a vasana. Absolutely.
Student: In this world of duality, it seems that there is always dharma and adharma conflict. Does this happen to move us toward understanding?
Ramji: Yes. That is the whole purpose of the creation. The reason why is because, when you analyze people’s actions, everything you do is to get rid of a sense of limitation. Think about it. Every single thing you do, you are trying to get rid of something that is bothering you. For example, if you have a desire, you want to get rid of that desire. Why? Because the desire is bothering you. If you have a fear, you want to get rid of that fear. Why? Because the fear is bothering you. There is nothing wrong with that. Let’s go on one step further and look at it this way. Why? Because your nature is freedom. Every single thing is for freedom, which shows that freedom is the best state. Freedom is the ultimate state. There nothing bothers you. And when you get rid of a fear or desire, you get a little taste of that freedom. You build a vasana for freedom, but you have it associated with some object. So, you don’t get the permanent freedom. So, karma yoga neutralizes your fears and your desires, your vasanas, your samskaras, neutralizes them so you can appreciate the freedom.
If you just do karma yoga, you will get free. You will get free just through the karma yoga practice. You will see just how it produces freedom.
Student: How do you practice karma yoga and upasana yoga together?
Ramji: Karma yoga is upasana yoga. It’s a practice. Upasana yoga just means discipline. Let’s make this simple. Your life should be disciplined. When you see parts of yourself that are not desirable, that are based upon ignorance, then you make a vow. You say “Ok, that’s not right. That’s not who I am. That isn’t a fine reflection of who I really am. I’m going to discipline myself, I’m going to change that situation so that part of myself reflects who I really am. Otherwise, I’m going to be sending mixed messages to everybody else. And I’m here as much for you, for the world, as I am for me. I know that’s hard to understand, because most of us think I’m here for the world mostly and for myself first, and maybe a little for the world if there is anything left over. But it’s not that way. You are as much here to give as you are to get. So when you get too far over on the getting part, on the greedy part, on the me-me-me part, the me-self, and you don’t think of the other, then you are out of balance. You are unbalanced dharmically. That means your mind is agitated.
So, the way you get out of the me-self is to serve the world. That’s all. Serve the other. In other words, think of what the situation demands and serve that. In the service of others you find yourself being served. I know it sounds strange: why no just take care of myself and not worry about the others? No, because you can’t. Because it’s all you! That’s the point. That’s what nonduality means.
Upasana yoga means that I should be disciplined. These are all habits. My habits support my character. If my habits are all dharmic and sattvic, I’m going to have a dharmic and sattvic character. I’m going to be a stand-up person, a role model. People are going to like me. I’m going to contribute to the world and the world is going to take care of me too. The upside is that if you are a beautiful person, the world wants to take care of you and look after you. Not that you are doing it for that reason. You are doing it for yourself, but in the process, you discover that the world is benefited and you are benefited too. So everybody benefits by this.
It’s simply finding that balance between your needs and the world’s needs. And seeing that the needs of the world come first. Isvara comes first. I come second. If there is anything left over, there is no reason why I can’t have a little fun, do whatever you do. But you need to take care of your duty to the world first and not think about yourself all the time. That’s the message of karma yoga.
In karma yoga, you sacrifice the result of the action, you let go of the result of the action. Of course, you don’t want to do adharmic actions. You want to do dharmic actions. But you sacrifice the result, so your mind is not full of anxiety. If you are worried about the result, then how are you going to act in an appropriate and timely way? how are you going to act and be successful if you are full of anxiety? It’s not going to work. Our society is not working because people are full of anxiety. If they were calm minded and did what they had to do, the anxiety would go away and they wouldn’t have all that conflict. It’s very simple, but we are so agitated now that we can’t even see the simplicity of the problem.
Don’t make too much of a distinction between karma yoga and upasana yoga. Any action you do, you should understand that the reaction (result) is out of my hands. I do the very best I can do according to the dharma, according to my dharma and according to what’s right in the world. And the rest of it, I just leave off to Isvara, because Isvara is the one that gives the results. And when the result comes that I didn’t expect, that I didn’t want or that I didn’t anticipate, I am still grateful for that because that is an opportunity for me to learn dharma. Because I am only going to get punished by actions that violate dharma, either my dharma or the dharma of the world. Otherwise, I don’t get punished. I get rewarded. I feel good in myself for doing the right action. People understand that and say “That’s a righteous person; I’ll serve that person, help that person.” It just happens. It’s normal, because the dharma in you recognizes the dharma in the other person. A good person can immediately tell a good person. It’s all good here.
You were never born and you never die. So, stop worrying about that. There is no connection between whom you are and the world. There is no connection.
