Dear Sundari,
I am so glad you are going to teach on this subject as I see it as a most important topic. I have been doing some writing to try to sort out my thoughts on it and wonder if you can help me sort it out.
Sundari: Thank you for your feedback. Yes, indeed, this teaching strikes at the heart of what it means (and what it takes) to live nonduality. Who we are as people is intrinsically bound up with our psychological makeup, which of course, is run by our likes and dislikes. As Ramji often bluntly points out, we are unhappy in life and with life because we did not or do not get what we want.
Thelma: When I first read the words of the Buddha saying all suffering comes from desire I was stymied by this concept. If desire went away how would anything get done? Now I understand that desire will never go away as long as one is alive.
Sundari: I think this is a common fear. Desire is seen as the driver of what makes life successful, fulfilling and worth living by worldly people. When the truth is most desire is actually the driver of what makes us unhappy. The Buddhists are not wrong in pointing this out, but they also make life very difficult for themselves because trying to get rid of all desire cannot be done (and is not necessary). As Krishna says, ‘I am the desire that is not opposed to dharma’.
We will always desire something, and that’s OK. It’s a matter of what we desire and the identification with the one with binding desires that causes suffering. Freedom from limitation takes determination and discipline to render binding tendencies nonbinding. But true freedom comes with Self-knowledge, which allows us to identify with our primary experience as the nondual witness who has no desires, in every moment of every day.
Thelma: And then I was presented with “the Great Way” which starts with “the Way is easy for those with no preferences”. A more subtle but same message about desire or “likes and dislikes”. I pondered this question for years and then Vedanta came along and answered the first question I had, which was why is there desire in the first place. Now I understand better how desire arises and I am left with the contemplation of “likes and dislikes”.
Sundari: The thing is, as stated above, we will always have preferences, it’s part of being human. It’s a question of how binding they are, and whether they are dharmic or adharmic. For instance, I would prefer to live and enjoy life even though I know I am not the body/mind, and I am unborn and undying. I love life, and I love living as love, knowing who I am. I love being with the people I love and would be sad to leave.
But if Isvara had to send me notice that my time is up as a jiva, well, that’s fine too. So it’s not desire itself that is the problem, but ignorance of my true nature, and the idea that I am incomplete and MUST have what I desire to be happy. That life must conform to the way I want it to be, other than the way it is, and the refusal to accept life as it unfolds. To want things to be different in the hope that it will take care of your emptiness and dissatisfaction.
Thelma: As I examine my own motivation or action in the world I can see the origin of actions in “likes or dislikes”. It seems to be rooted in fear of “not getting” and therefore suffering or “getting” and therefore feeling relief from the pain of desire temporarily. But the next desire arises only to repeat the cycle. If the motivation for Jiva in all actions is “likes or dislikes” then vigilance at all times must be maintained to examine and possibly neutralize “likes or dislikes” to reduce suffering.
Sundari: Yes, see above. It always comes down to neutralizing the entrenched jiva identity, which sees itself as inherently flawed and lacking, and identifying with the unchanging fullness and completeness of your true identity, the Self. If you can do this in every moment of every day, your likes and dislikes pose no problem at all.
Thelma: But if Jiva is not a doer then all action and results rest with Ishvara. The idea to do an action, the action and the results are not in Jiva’s hands. If Ishvara presents an opening for action then there is “no actual action” just a flow. Perhaps that is where appropriate action takes place and bliss is experienced without the accompanying pain of “likes and dislikes” that create Vasanas. A Karma free action. Free of desire therefore free of suffering? Is this what is spoken about as “Right Action” in Buddhism?
Sundari: Yes, correct. Right action is appropriate action according to the dharma of the situation – both your personal svadharma and situational dharma. The underlying principle in both is non-injury. From the jiva perspective, relinquishing binding likes and dislikes and taking each moment as a sacred direction from Isvara may seem like a big sacrifice. But once the ego is on board with the idea that Isvara has your back and is the real doer in every situation, going with the flow is the only sane option. You know that it is futile to do otherwise, that you will simply get beaten up if you do.
When this knowledge starts to really sink in, you are on your way to freedom from and for the jiva, and you want it badly. You are tired of following the dualistic dictates of your own flawed mind. You are tired of suffering, and have become very suspicious of your likes and dislikes because you know the cost of having them. You hold each one up for examination, and surrender each one, even the ones you act on, to the field. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and humility.
Thelma: “Likes and dislikes” can cause physical violence at the extremes, like what we see on the news every night. But what about the subtle violence of trying to change people’s minds or influence them with fear or temptation. Where is the line between preference and “likes and dislikes” that causes behavior that affects the outer world. In Thich Nhat Hahn’s precepts it calls for not causing harm in “thought or deed”. This requires awareness of thought. In a world with varying degrees of awareness of thought or discernment of thoughts, how does one navigate the dangers inherent in Jiva’s world?
Sundari: All adharma, from personal to huge worldly events, is caused by the ultimate pursuit of our likes and dislikes, especially those that we will hold onto at all costs. Following dharma is the same in many ways as relinquishing binding likes and dislikes, be they obviously or covertly violent. There is no difference really, perhaps only in degree. But adharma is adharma. And adharma begets adharma. As stated, the underlying principle of dharma is non injury in thought word and deed – to oneself or anyone else.
If we know that life is not separate from me, that all life is me, though I am not it, what benefit is there to breaking dharma? If holding onto my likes and dislikes causes injury, I am the one that pays the price in loss of peace of mind. Why would I do that? Not a chance if you know who you are. Only if I am ignorant of my true nature and I believe that I must have my likes and dislikes fulfilled to be happy will I pursue that path. The fact that the seeming satisfaction I get from manipulating life to get what I want or avoid what I don’t want never lasts, or gives me true satisfaction, and there is always a huge price attached, escapes me. I think I have won, gained something. But that is never true.
Therefore, ‘navigating the dangers in Isvara’s world’ comes down firstly, to objectivity about your jiva psychology. Various things help here, as we have discussed at length for a long time. Even without Self-knowledge, this will give you a handle on why you want what you want and what you are prepared to do to get it. But to get to the real problem, which is ignorance of your true nature as the Self and identification with your jiva identity, is a whole other ball game. Here you need a valid and independent means of knowledge, qualifications for self-inquiry, and being properly taught. The application of the nondual teachings to your life is the only true defence against Maya – Isvara’s world.
Thelma: Likes and dislikes can be seen in the most subtle movement of mind/ego. When someone says something that causes hurt feelings can it be traced to preferences of ego? Desire to be liked or get something from the world. Why would anyone care what someone else says? It comes from their mind and words and isn’t even my business. Why would it trigger a preference that then causes thoughts that are painful? It has to be ego driven I think.
Sundari: The desire to be liked and validated by outside factors is a natural human tendency, one that probably helped us survive as a species. The ego is a very fragile entity, and the words we use can cause much injury. As unreal as feelings are, sometimes, it is hard to bring discrimination into it. To see not only what was said objectively and not take on the hurt as an ego, but also, to take it as a spiritual lesson. I had that experience earlier this year, when a deep betrayal took place in my life, and revealed the truth about two people I thought were true friends. Karma yoga and seeing it from the Self’s perspective neutralized the hurt feelings, but it wasn’t pleasant. The spiritual lesson for me was humility, not because arrogance was present, but to become fearless. The fearlessness of not needing any validation. Knowing you cannot be hurt, so preferences become moot.
Thelma: Then a response to the pain occurs which comes from “likes and dislikes” and feeds into the cycle of pain and suffering. How does this ever stop? The response itself can cause unintentional pain to the other person. But if you react from your own pain then the preference for being understood can cause hurt to the other.
Sundari: See above. Yes, likes and dislikes are the modus operandi of the ego. And it’s not always subtle, but starkly obvious – usually to everyone else other than yourself. As everything we experience as a jiva is tied to a like or a dislike, if we understand where they come from (Maya, beginningless ignorance/the gunas) we can objectify them. Particularly hurt feelings, and reactions to others that cause hurt feelings to them. We see the pattern, identify the source, understand the hurt feelings, and we know that we are the witness of the hurt feelings. There is a space between me and the hurt feelings, between me and reacting to hurt feelings, mine or anyone else’s. Feelings are highly repetitive and predictable, and they always come and go. But I, the witness of the feelings, do not. Only Self-knowledge has the power to break the like/dislike/pain cycle.
Thelma: Hmmm….Eckhart Tolle talks about “the pain body” that arises between two people and I wonder if this is what he is speaking about.
Sundari: The ‘pain body’ is just another concept, an object known to me. How does that idea help you to be free of the like/dislike cycle causing the ‘pain body’? It does not, in fact, it only serves to make it more entrenched. Without Self-knowledge, you are just stuck with another concept.
Thelma: If a person’s “likes and dislikes” are in line with one’s dharma I suppose the action that occurs wouldn’t produce Karma, but it still might cause suffering to the world. When you give responsibility to Ishvara for the results is it just a convenient cop-out?
Sundari: If you are truly following dharma with the karma yoga attitude, and this causes suffering to someone else, that is not your responsibility. The karma does not come to you, even if there is blow back karma for you as a person. You cannot do the dharma of another, and to not act dharmically for yourself so as to avoid causing injury to another will not prevent injury. It may seem to at first, but eventually, it will cause more injury. That is not a cop out.
Thelma: Of course, it is true that the results are not up to you, but that doesn’t absolve one of the responsibility to neutralize the “likes and dislikes”.
Sundari: No, the results are not up to you, in any situation. You did not give yourself likes and dislikes, they belong to Isvara, so you are not ‘responsible for them. You are only ‘responsible’ for them in that binding likes and dislikes cause injury when you are identified as a person. Binding adharmic likes and dislikes keep you stuck in duality, in bondage to the smallest idea of who you are, and prevent you from living the truth of who you are as the nondual Self.
Dismantling adharmic likes and dislikes is not easy, that is ‘the work’ of self-inquiry. But there are likes and dislikes that are not contrary to dharma – such as a desire for moksa, or being healthy, or being kind and considerate of others. Surrender to Isvara also does not mean that you can never say no to what comes your way. Even if it hurts someone else’s feelings.
Thelma: Upon further reflection It appears to me that Likes and Dislikes contain the obstacles of Greed and Fear. If I look deeply into Greed I can see how much of Jiva’s lives are driven by Greed (Likes). The lengths people will go to get what they want is unbelievable. And likewise the behavior driven by Fear seems endless and causes untold suffering. But I have noticed that upon close reflection a gap can open up between these two motivations that frees the Jiva from both motivations and feels absolutely Free. This Gap is free of Likes and Dislikes. Ishvara provides ample opportunities as we bounce between Greed and Fear to practice standing in that Gap. Does this make sense? It isn’t neutralizing Likes and Dislikes as much as seeing them for what they are and not taking them for “Being Real” and thus being able to look at both and choose neither. This space might be “The Razors Edge” and is like a tightrope walk. Thanks for your time. I look forward to your teaching on this.
Sundari: Bingo! Yes absolutely, greed and fear are synonymous with likes and dislikes and are only present when ignorance rules the mind. It is what propels people to get what they think they need to be successful, safe, powerful, validated, etc, at all costs. As you say, unbelievable the lengths ignorance will go to achieve this, even though it never works. Actually, the ‘razors’ edge and walking a tight rope applies more to those who are ruled by their likes and dislikes, because of the inherent suffering involved. But I understand how you use the term here. Rendering likes and dislikes nonbinding can seem like walking a tightrope between ignorance and knowledge, though it is the way to peace of mind.
When Self-knowledge renders likes and dislikes non-binding, it is impossible to be greedy or in fear. You truly become fearless. You know you are whole and complete, so you become ‘porous’. Whatever shows up, whether you like it or not, act on it or not, nothing ‘sticks’ to you. It may seem like this is too good to be true, because life can be difficult and bring uncomfortable feelings like sadness, sorrow, and many others. It’s ok to allow human emotions to just be. But everything can be objectified in a mind that is firm in Self-knowledge. It does not mean you become unfeeling or dissociated from or towards life. You just become dispassionate knowing that nothing here is real. Only you are.
Much love
Sundari
