Hi James,
Just wound up Chapter 3 of the Gita and by grace knowledge is continuing to deepen. The one sticking point is the following from Rory’s book: “The greatest tragedies in human history (and today, sadly), such was wars, genocide, violence and ecological destruction are not caused by Ishvara, but the human mind’s ignorance of Ishvara“
Is Ishvara not responsible for everything in the creation, which would include the nature of the human mind, i.e. thoughts, emotions, self-notion and the resulting actions? If this is the case then could all adharmic actions not ultimately be the will of Ishvara? Is “violence” in its various forms not ultimately a prerequisite to Self-knowledge? Can all “evil” not be viewed simply as a necessary (albeit unfortunately shitty) means to an end from Ishvara’s point of view, or more appropriate perhaps, the Self’s point of view?
Isvara is a What Not a Who
James: Your statement is predicated on the belief that Isvara is an all-powerful, all-knowing omnipresent jiva. Isvara and the creation are non-separate so there It has no “sense” of responsibility. The idea of responsibility is based on duality, a connection between a conscious subject and an object, sentient or insentient.
Jack: It appears like this to me:
1. Cosmic ignorance is an effect of pure awareness
James: Not so. How can something that is causeless and immutable generate an effect like ignorance? Ignorance is beginningless (anadi) like the Self. Ignorance is possible if an object exists. Objects can be known or not-known. But the Self cannot be objectified, so from its perspective ignorance is non-existent. However, when Ignorance is operating, the Self thinks it is a jiva that is separate from the world and if it is lucky and hears Vedanta its ignorance disappears in the wake of knowledge, sees that it is non-dual Awareness and has a good laugh.
2. Creation is an effect of cosmic ignorance
James: Ignorance is not knowing something. When Creation appears, jivas evolve in it and they don’t know they are Awareness so they feel incomplete. Seeeing a multiplicity of objects, they pursue and avoid them according to their inbuilt likes and dislikes i.e. duality, the belief that they contain happiness. They think the objects will complete them because they don’t know the creation is mithya, not real.
3. Duality is an effect of creation
James: The creation is not duality because it doesn’t negate Awareness. But jivas in it are flummoxed by it’s dualistic zero-sum nature. Only something that is unreal can be zero-sum. If the creation was “real” you could win or lose, but if it was real it wouldn’t change so there would be no wins or losses.
4. Personal ignorance is an effect of duality.
James: More or less. Ignorance is the belief that duality is real. Belief is ignorance because there is nothing to disbelieve if see your Self.
5. Egoism is an effect of personal ignorance.
James: Yes.
6. Desire is an effect of egoism.
James: All jivas are egos, limited entities. They all have desire but not all jiva’s have egoism. When then understand Isvara their egoism disappears.
7. Action (dharmic and adharmic) is an effect of desire.
James: Yes.
8. Suffering (of self or others) is an effect of adharmic action.
James: Yes, but not necessarily because actions have unintended consequences. No good deed goes unpunished owing to the zero-sum nature of karma.
9. Desire for self knowledge is an effect of suffering.
James: It may be but not necessarily. Many suffering people think the deck is stacked against them and think that there is no liberation.
10. Freedom is an effect of self knowledge.
James: Yes and no. It seems like it because when you know who you are you are free but that is only because your ignorance was removed. Freedom, limitless, is not the effect of anything. It is the nature of the Self. So it cannot be produced.
11. Peace is an effect of freedom (non dual vision within duality or the integration of satya and mithya).
James: No. Peace and freedom are synonyms. Non-dual vision “within” duality is not possible. Freedom is freedom from duality. You can’t integrate satya and mithya because they are in different orders of reality. You can’t integrate a dream and waking. You are either dreaming or you are awake. You can’t be both simultaneously. It contradicts experience.
Mike: Through inquiry “my” experience is increasingly becoming that of just awareness watching a full sensory movie commissioned by awareness and designed by intelligent ignorance (which currently feels right to view and appreciate as God). Slowly knowing this is resulting in an increasingly pleasant movie which one can’t help be grateful for and trusting of whatever is being experienced.
James: Cool. When you take Isvara on board, your life gets easier and easier.
Jack: It seems the glory of Moksha comes at a heavy cost. Light needs the dark until it realizes it is the light.
James: The cost of non-seeking freedom is much heavier. A worldly man said to a wise man, “You are indeed a great soul because you have given up everything for freedom.” The wise man replied, “You are much greater than me. You have given up freedom for a few paltry objects.””
Jack: Sorry for the rambling, all that could probably have been one sentence haha…there’s a weird excitement as knowledge takes hold and I no-one to share it with so it has exploded on you.
James: It’s OK. I know how it feels when you realize there is a solution to samsara. Stick to it. You are in the ballpark with all your answers. You haven’t hit a home run but you will; it is only a matter of time i.e. Isvara’s grace.
Love,
James
