Topics: Free Will, Compassion, Good and Evil, Surrender, Taking a Stand in Awareness, Resolving Paradox
Ramji: The answer to our question “Is there free will?” which might as well be “Is everything predetermined?” depends on your perspective. If you are looking at it from Marie’s point of view, the situation is determined, but you have free will within the parameters of that situation (within your karma, your life situation) to make choices. So there is free will for you if you think you are Marie.
If you think you are the self, the question doesn’t arise at all. It doesn’t matter. If you are the self, you are aware of a power in you that is generating all these circumstances. It created Marie, her thoughts, feelings, her whole karmic situation, so there is no free will for Marie. So the answer to the question depends on who you think you are.
Marie: I do hear that, from the position of I-the-self, the question doesn’t arise. But the question that does arise is “Is this world a self-running machine?” because, as you say, “security is very tight” between me-awareness and me-the-Marie-object, so is this like a self-running show, where there is no way to influence it from me-the-self to me-the-object?
Ramji: That’s right. There are no objects for the Self. The objects don’t have any impact on the self. If what happened in Marie’s life had any impact on the self, then the self wouldn’t be free, would it? The self would be changed or modified by what Marie does.
Marie: So this is a closed system! This is already a generated movie, what we are all kind of watching!
Ramji: That the self – you – are watching.
Marie: That we-the-Oneness, or the non-dual awareness, is watching.
Ramji: No. Just say, “I, awareness, am watching.” You have to own awareness as you. So it’s completely predetermined.
Marie: That blows me away. It just blows me away. And part of me – sorry that I have to use language in this clunky way…
Ramji: You have a language problem because you haven’t been taught properly. You are trying to use your words to understand something. That’s why it’s so hard to express it and to understand it – because the words you are using are just personal interpretations of your experience – whereas in Vedanta you are not allowed to use interpreted words or interpret any words. You need to go right to the beginning and be taught the meaning of each word. If you are taught properly, then it’s not a problem. But trying to translate what Vedanta is saying into your own language doesn’t work.
But you’re right. From the self’s point of view, from your point of view, this is a closed system because if anything that Marie did affected you (self) then the self wouldn’t be free, would it? It would be changed or modified by what Marie does, wouldn’t it?
Most people wonder why the self doesn’t jump over to their lives and save their sorry asses from problems. They expect God to save them because God is compassionate. People think the self has some sort of impact on the world and the world has some sort of impact on the self, but there is actually no connection between the two. There is only a seeming connection between them. But we [say] there is a real connection.
The problem boils down to this: when you say the word “I,” when Marie says the word “I,” don’t you include your body and mind with the word “I”?
Marie: I do include a story; there is a story attached to the word “I.”
Ramji: Yeah, you include a story: I did this, I did that, I’m a mother, I lived in Massachusetts, I moved to Florida where it is not cold, etc. – whatever the story is. That’s the problem, because you are adding something to the “I” that doesn’t belong to the “I.” So, in your mind, whenever you think or say the word “I,” you should mentally subtract the story if you want to solve the problem.
Marie: So the Hitlers and the Mother Theresas – all that is predetermined?
Ramji: Sure! They don’t have any impact on the self! They are just objects in the apparent reality, that only impact on the apparent reality, which isn’t an impact at all. How can something that is unreal – Marie – be changed? Hitler and Mother Theresa didn’t know they were the self! If you read Mother Theresa’s autobiography, you’ll see that she was a suffering person! She has no idea that she is non-different from God or Jesus. She lived in a dreamworld where things happen, but they don’t really happen. She was locked up in the dualistic notion that she is a person here doing good and saving the world, turning people to Christ and so forth.
Marie: Let me rephrase that. I’m just trying to get to the issue of morality. So the self-running closed system, the apparent reality, is in a way amoral! All that we label “good” and all which we label “bad,” the Hitler side and the Ramana Maharshi side, all of it is just predetermined!
Ramji: Absolutely! It’s a set-up. In other words, Isvara is good and evil!
Marie: It’s everything!
Ramji: That’s right: Isvara is everything!
Marie: That blows me away.
Ramji: That’s why non-duality is hard to accept. You have to learn to love the bad bits as well as you love the good bits. But you don’t want to do that. You feel free as long as you think that you are better than you are or that you are different from what you were, but you’re not free or better, because you that’s in this predetermined imperfect is imperfect by nature, it’s a false concept, so there is no escape as that person. Fortunately, the actual you is already out, so there’s hope.
Marie: A few months ago there was a duck on the road that was obviously hit by a car, but alive. And I have a walking disability; the logistics were such that there was no way I could stop the car, walk, pick up the duck and bring it to the vet. Surely the duck was about to be run over. And the issue that I have, the Marie-object, is that I felt such pain! At the time, it was like it was my pain! And so, when I think of evil situations, the Hitler cruelty and all of the ghastly things that do happen, I feel the pain of the of the beings in those situations. And it blows me away that these things are predetermined and there is nothing really I can do. I, awareness, can’t change it.
Ramji: What’s causing the pain is the expectation that it should be different, that there shouldn’t be pain. But Krishna says it is a system of pleasure and pain! You want all the pleasure and no pain. But pleasure only exists because the pain exists. The pain only exists because pleasure exists. That’s what duality means! So they are completely relative – one dependent upon the other. So they are not real, which is to say permanent. They are the result of karma that has already been done.
Now, when you used the word “I,” who was speaking? Was the self speaking or was Marie speaking?
Marie: I think it was the Marie speaking.
Ramji: It was Marie because the self isn’t going to say that. The self is going to understand that this is of the nature of the Field, the creative power or God/Maya: you don’t have the good without the bad, you don’t have the bad without the good. They are mutually interrelated, and nothing can be done about it. Moksa is the understanding that nothing can be done about this.
Marie: It’s like a complete surrender.
Ramji: Once you understand this fact, there is no option but to surrender and accept everything as it is! Whether you like it or not is irrelevant; it has no impact on the reality. It just means if you could be different you would be different. But it’s not up to you. And once you accept what you can’t change, your likes and dislikes are destroyed.
It is normal to feel pain, the pain of the world. But that is just a feeling that isn’t there constantly. It’s not real. You have to live with it, but you shouldn’t live in it. It’s momentary. Somehow that pain is resolved and you feel good. Life is good. You read your Vedanta and you are happy. You are talking to the great Ramji now and you are very happy. So where is the pain now? And the pleasure of this conversation is going to be gone too, and pain will come; you don’t know when, because it’s not under your control. You just surrender to Isvara what belongs to Isvara. Surrender unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. That’s the idea!
Marie: Wow – wow – I’m just blown away. There are so many implications from that! It just completely feels like it destroys endless misconceptions.
Ramji: Well, that’s what the teachings mean: the word “Upanishad” means “what destroys.” This knowledge destroys ignorance. In other words, it destroys that identification. That’s the point. It doesn’t get you something new. It gets rid of something that is troubling you.
Marie: All the blame, all the judgements: gone!
Ramji: That’s right. All the blame is gone! Absolutely.
Marie: And all of the self-accolades: gone!
Ramji: That’s right.
Marie: Like, I have a PhD from Yale. It doesn’t matter! Isvara did it!
Ramji: That’s right.
Marie: I get no Brownie points for that!
Ramji: Your PhD from Yale doesn’t impress Isvara. And it shouldn’t impress you either, because you didn’t really do it.
Marie: I didn’t do it!
Ramji: Absolutely.
Marie: And residual animosity toward my ex-husband: gone! He didn’t do anything!
Ramji: He was just being himself! Isvara just made him what he was, and he behaved according to his nature, and it didn’t fit with your likes and dislikes, so you left the guy or he left you or whatever happened.
Marie: Puppets on a string! Everybody: puppets on a string.
Ramji: There you go! Puppets on a string.
Marie: And the duck on the road: another puppet on a string.
Ramji: There is no saving anything. Everything is already saved. You can’t change reality, what is. And if something is not real, you can’t change it either. There are only these two categories in existence: what is real (permanent, changeless) and what is not real (is impermanent, changes). “Not real” doesn’t mean it’s not existent. “Not real” means it’s not permanent. It comes and goes. And we want the evil to not exist. We want the whole picture to be one big rosy, warm-fuzzy, huggy-kissy sort of thing.
Marie: Yeah, I would sign up for that!
Ramji: Yeah, we would all sign up for that, but there is no way to sign up, because we don’t have the log-in password. Isvara is in control of that. We can’t log in and sign up.
Marie: So, Ramji, the impulse to alleviate suffering, that’s just another appearance?
Ramji: Yes. That impulse is normal for a jiva. It means that you are sensitive to dharma. But that’s fine. But it is just an impulse. It’s related to dharma and adharma, which is Isvara, so it’s normal to feel those things, but to take them to be real and to want them to be different: that’s the suffering.
Marie: And perhaps the paradox is that when one awakens to the self, inevitably that has beneficial impact on the Field.
Ramji: That’s correct.
Marie: But that’s also part of the predetermined system.
Ramji: That’s right, because you don’t decide to get awakened. You awaken by Isvara’s grace; that awakening affects the things in the Field, but the effects don’t last, because the Field is time.
Marie: Yes, it’s almost like a closed loop – it’s really Isvara deciding the Marie-object will be now awakened.
Ramji: Yeah, that’s right! Or that the Marie-object is going to need to be reborn, it needs to die, and that’s all set up by Marie’s karma. In other words, Isvara is the one that facilitates Marie’s karma. And you didn’t choose the karma in the first place! Isvara chose the karma for you, actually. That is just a great relief! The peace just comes! The satisfaction just comes when you understand Isvara. Right?
Marie: Yes, I’m a little speechless. I see that, like you say in your audios and videos, the Marie-object still has to act. It’s not like you awaken and don’t do anything.
Ramji: You are acting 24/7. You are waking, acting, talking, eating, sleeping, digesting, etc. From womb to tomb, you are acting because there is karma, there is desire, and there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is wanting it to be different.
Marie: Yes. Thank you. As an example, I had one of the poorest night’s sleep last night, and there was desire for it to be different.
Ramji: Sure. I had the desire today for the goddamn internet to quit denying me access to my bank account. And I spent an hour-and-a-half trying. And then I realized that it was a browser problem. So I changed browsers, and suddenly I could get into my account so I could pay my damn bills. And I’m cursing Spain and I’m cursing God and I’m cursing America; I’m cursing the internet and cursing God for making me a spoiled entitled American. It was really entertaining, but that’s life! So what! It’s Isvara’swill.
Marie: So you go through experiences like that and what is at the forefront of your experience is that you are watching it. Is that how it is?
Ramji: Yes, exactly. The Marie-object, the James-object, appears in front of you, awareness, all the time. You are always observing that object. It’s like having a dog on a leash who is running in front of you. It’s not pulling you here and there from behind. It’s a puppet on a string, and you watch it doing its little dance and it’s amusing. That’s all.
Marie: That’s an excellent image. Yes, because where I was going with my very poor sleep and events that happened during the night is that it was completely unpredictable! And it completely further solidified how the Marie-object is not in control! Things are just popping up! It’s like, “Well, look at that! Look at that!”
Ramji: Yeah. If I wake up at 2:00 in the morning, I don’t sit around and hope that my mind is going to go back to sleep. I just get up, even though I don’t want to do it. I just get out of bed, I go boot up my computer and I work on one of my projects. I just say, “Well, fuck you, Isvara; this is what I’m going to do because you won’t give me sleep.” And when Isvara decides to put me to sleep, I say, “Thank you for giving me sleep, you pervert,” when I wake up.
Marie: So, within the closed system, you act as though you have free will.
Ramji: That’s right. You pretend that you have free will.
Marie: Okay, because there is the appearance of free will!
Ramji: There is! That’s the point!
Marie: It’s very paradoxical!
Ramji: It is paradoxical. Vedanta is difficult, because you have to be able to live with the paradoxes. And the intellect doesn’t like them. It wants simplicity, certainty so it will stop worrying. But Vedanta give you knowledge of reality so you can live comfortably with paradoxes! When you look at life from what you are, it’s a zero-sum paradox.
Marie: And the little jiva does not like unpredictability or lack of control.
Ramji: No, it doesn’t. I want into my bank account. I have bills to pay. I don’t want the bill collectors coming and yelling and screaming at me and have to sell a bunch of stories to them, etc. It’s funny!
Marie: Another one of my questions had to do with physical pain. That’s the Marie-puppet in front of me doing the pain thing that Isvara is putting in front of me, awareness.
Ramji: Yes! According to her karma, whatever happened, some actions that were done by the Marie-puppet that caused the disability that produced the pain and the pain that’s in the pipeline that will come.
Marie: So you watch it. You don’t identify with it. There it is in front of you.
Ramji: That’s right. When you start identifying with an object, then you have to suffer and enjoy according to the nature of that object. So when I wake up at 3:00 in the morning and don’t want to wake up, I don’t identify with the thought “I want to go back to sleep.” I think, “Okay, what will take away this issue?” – “I want to write my book.” So I get up and I go to my computer and I start writing my book because that is something I like to do and produces joy for me. So I transform that negative thought into a positive thought and enjoy. And then when Isvara gives me the sleep, I say, “Okay, I can use that now. I see this is your will now. I see you want me to go to sleep because you are making me tamasic, so I’m going to lie down and go to sleep.” So in that way you can manage it. Speaking as an apparent entity, you can manage the situation.
But, ultimately, the things that are in the pipeline you are going to have to experience one way or the other. But you don’t have to suffer.
Marie: So the liberation or the moksa of Vedanta is taking a stand in awareness as awareness. So even though the puppet on a string in front of you has pain and pleasure, you recognize the freedom that you have always been, even though there is pain and pleasure showing up in front of you. That’s liberation.
Ramji: Yes, that’s liberation.
Marie: So, in that sense, there is no suffering, because the identity is in that which cannot suffer!
Ramji: There you go!
Marie: But the little puppet may suffer!
Ramji: Yes, the puppet suffers and enjoys.
Marie: So I may still see the Marie-object weeping over this or having pain over that, and enjoying this and enjoying that, even though, let’s just say, the Marie-object had moksa and I, awareness, am over here watching the whole thing.
Ramji: Well, you got moksa now because you are looking at it from that point of view. You are speaking from the self’s point of view now.
Marie: So it’s really freedom FROM the Marie-object!
Ramji: That’s it!
Marie: Is there freedom FOR her? I know that she is an inert object, but I want freedom for her too.
Ramji: Yeah, there is more or less freedom FOR her. In other words, if you manage Marie’s life in such a way, you can reduce the amount of pain and increase the amount of pleasure by managing the gunas, i.e. your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings and so forth. So, yes! But you’re never going to get rid of all of it, of all the pain.
Marie: And I don’t know what Isvara has predetermined for the Marie-object in front of me, awareness.
Ramji: No, you have an impact on Isvara, but not on awareness! You can impact the creative power. Absolutely. But it takes a lot of work because Isvara is a very conservative, entrenched force.
Marie: Okay, “you” who? You, the Marie-object, or you, awareness?
Ramji: The Marie-object because Isvara and jiva are in the Maya. The self is beyond Isvara and jiva. Now, Isvara is very powerful and Isvara is the default. Isvara just makes things happen. But jiva can tell Isvara what it wants by doing actions, and Isvara is forced to deliver the results that are appropriate to those actions. But that is a lot of work.
Marie: And that’s also from the side of awareness without identifying, you still act with that apparent free will in dharmic ways with knowledge of the gunas. Is that the idea?
Ramji: Well, awareness as James acts with knowledge of the gunas to change James’ situation. For instance, I didn’t want to live in America anymore; I wanted to move to Spain. Now, I could sit around and tell Isvara, “Please move me to Spain and I’ll go when you send me.” But that doesn’t work with Isvara. How did I get to Spain? I put out a tremendous amount of effort. Just incredible effort. You know what the bureaucracy is like here: it’s a bitch. They don’t trust anybody. And they are not forthcoming with information. Everything is a pain. Even for the Spanish it’s a pain. I went and bought a car the other day, and they want the document that says I live in Spain. Now, I sent them the document that they gave me in January. But they don’t trust me that I still live there. So they want the same document, but they want it dated October or November. So now, what do I have to do? I have to go down to the ayuntamiento, go there, wait and wait, give them money, then send it to the automobile people. But, so what? I have to do that or down the line I will have more trouble. So, what do I do? I just do it! It doesn’t matter what I, James, like. You just do it. It’s the appropriate thing to do, considering that I live in Spain and I want a car.
Marie: And that is what Isvara put in front of James.
Ramji: Yes! And that’s how I took care of Isvara! Now that thought is gone. Now that problem is gone. Now I’ve got the car. Now they are not going to hassle me. You are always required to do something. And at the same time, your actions do have a momentary effect on your environment, on the situation.
Marie: Because, like you said, you are part of the Maya, you are part of the predetermined show.
Ramji: The matrix. You are in the matrix.
Marie: So, when Sundari says, “Experience is a time capsule delivering knowledge,” what exactly does that mean?
Ramji: This is for a person who wants to understand who they are, not a doer. So when you are doing something, you are always concerned with the result. You are not trying to get knowledge. You are trying to get a favorable outcome. And the result is the knowledge that you want. You don’t care to know who you are. You care to get what you want.
Vedantins look at experience differently. When we look at experience, we ask,“Who is experiencing this?” Because, whenever you have an object, even though you cannot see the self (awareness), the awareness is implied, isn’t it? The presence of awareness is implied because you cannot have an object unless you know the existence of that object, and you can’t know of the existence of that object unless awareness is present.
Most people don’t think about the self when they are involved in an experience. So Vedanta is very difficult for those people, because when you tell them about the self (awareness), they think, “Well, I want to experience this wonderful thing that is the self and when I get that experience I’m going to be happy forever.” That’s what they think. But that’s not possible, because there is no way that they can get to the self, because they already are awareness. But they can’t see it, so they think it’s attainable elsewhere. But it’s not an object that is attainable – it’s them! So how are they going to get the awareness that they already are?
They are going to have to use a little logic. The logic is very simple. For instance: if you are driving a car, you need to see the drivers in front of you so you don’t hit them, and you need to see what’s behind you so it doesn’t hit you. You need those two kinds of knowledge. But you don’t need to look in front and behind directly. If you wag your head back and forth you definitely will have an accident.
You see the cars behind you in your rear-view mirror. When you look in the rear-view mirror, do you see the cars behind you? No, you see the reflection of the cars behind you. You don’t directly perceive the existence of a car. You infer the existence of a car. Now, that inference is as good as direct perception, isn’t it? Inference is a valid means of knowledge.
So what is a valid means of knowledge for the self (awareness)? It’s Vedanta. It’s the rear-view mirror. You look into the words of Vedanta and they reveal the self, awareness, which you can’t see with your eyes. And they are as good as knowing the self because you already know that you exist, that you are conscious. You just need to let scripture prove to you that you are limitless. In fact you can understand that, if you exist, you can’t be separate from existence. If you are conscious, you can’t be separate from consciousness. And you know that consciousness and existence are not limited; there are not two of them or three of them or five of them or ten of them to limit each other. So therefore you must be limitless. And so you accept the scripture’s words. We call that faith in the scriptures because the scripture is just telling you the truth. It’s telling you that you can’t directly perceive yourself, awareness, as an object. The first thing Krishna tells Arjuna is in the Bhagavad Gita is, “The self cannot be objectified,” which means that you have to take an indirect approach to realization. And that indirect approach is as good as a direct approach. In fact it’s is the only approach because you can’t approach yourself. You are yourself.
Marie: You have to use inference for liberation because you are already free.
Ramji: You have to look in the mirror. Yes.
Marie: So, going back to the thought “Isvara takes care of your needs in the context of the Field,” I almost hear a purpose. Is there in that closed-system machinery (of the deterministic apparent reality), a movement toward self-awakening? Is that a fair interpretation?
Ramji: Sure. Absolutely. Don’t you have a movement toward self-awakening?
Marie: It feels very strong for me, but I don’t know if that is part of the mechanism of the show.
Ramji: Yes it is. You suffer, but the suffering is good! It pushes you toward self-awakening. Most people come to the self through suffering.
Marie: Yes, it is self-evident that (1) all the jivas want more happiness, (2) all the jivas want fewer limits, (3) all the jivas don’t want suffering. And that’s our true nature right there! So it’s like we are called to awaken to our true nature. Those forces are very real.
Ramji: Yes. In terms of the world, yes, they are very real. So everything is basically pointing to the awareness all the time. When you have a thought or a feeling, just take that as a sign, a reflection, of your nature. In other words, look at that thought and think of the one who knows that thought, and then you are awareness. There is only one Knower of the mind. You have removed your ignorance. The ignorance is just ignoring something that you are. It’s not “you are stupid,” it’s just that you are ignoring a factor that is always present. So all objects, thoughts, feelings and situations, etc. are opportunities for knowledge of the I-awareness principle.
Marie: I like this a lot. One view is to think: “My goodness! Isvara is a closed system, Isvara-jiva is a closed system and it’s all meaningless.
Ramji: Yeah.
Marie: Another scenario is: “It’s a closed system, but it’s moving toward self-awakening!” That’s very different!
Ramji: Yes.
Marie: So that is what Sundari meant with, “Experience is a time capsule delivering knowledge.” She meant SELF-knowledge?
Ramji: She meant self-knowledge. Yes.
Marie: And when you say, “Isvara takes care of your needs,” how does that fit in with it being a closed system moving toward self-awakening?
Ramji: Because if you turn over your needs to Isvara, then you quit worrying about it. And once you quit worrying about your needs, your mind automatically goes to your self, awareness, because that’s where the joy is.
Marie: Okay. Oh, that’s beautiful. Wow!
Ramji: You understand it now. Good for you!
Marie: Thank you! I am a little speechless.
Ramji: You need a guru because you won’t figure this out on your own. All the New Age, the Neo-Advaita teaching is inadequate. They only talk about awareness as an object to be experienced. And living with the paradox is too hard, it’s too hard to accept. So you need to be taught.
Marie: Yes! It’s painful! to live with a paradox. Tell me black or white. Right?
Ramji: Yes. Paradox is built into the system. In other words, as long as you have mithya, you have satya. And that’s the way it is. But once you understand what satya is and what mithya is, the paradox doesn’t bother you.
Marie: So where do you put all of science? Is that like the rules of Isvara? Is that where science fits in?
Ramji: Yes. Science is Isvara’s physical laws and psychological laws, and religion is Isvara’s moral laws: don’t injure, tell the truth, etc.
Marie: Going back to our previous conversation, all of those Isvara laws from religion and science are the mechanism toward awakening the jivas.
Ramji: Yes!
Marie: Okay, where does compassion fit into this whole picture of Vedanta and Isvara?
Ramji: You are totally compassionate to yourself, you totally love yourself and the world, when you see that everything is Isvara and is non-separate from you, awareness. Love is just understanding. It “stands under” the Marie-object. Compassion is not some goofy, silly emotion that you generate.
Marie: Yes, because you see all the puppets on a string that don’t realize they are puppets on a string.
Ramji: That’s it! As soon as you realize you are a puppet on a string, you have compassion for the puppet, don’t you?
Marie: Not only compassion for the Marie-puppet, but for all the other puppets!
Ramji: There is no difference – there is only one puppet. It just looks like there are other puppets, but they are all the same puppet. One is called Marie, the other is called Joe, the other is called Sally, the other is called Peter, whatever, they have different names because they have different bodies, born at different times and places and different stories, but it’s all the same. It’s like electricity: it comes through the radio and comes out as sound, it comes through a light bulb as light, it comes through a heater as heat, but it’s all just electricity transformed by the instrument. So the instruments are different, but the force or the power behind them is the same.
Marie: What has struck me deeply through the years is the amount of suffering of some apparent jivasversus the relatively little amount of suffering of some other puppets.
Ramji: Yes, that’s right. I’ve virtually had zero suffering. I live in such a way that I force Isvara to give me pleasure. And what little pain comes, I know is inevitable. I earned my good karma by doing the right things, thinking the right thoughts, etc.
Marie: I am struggling with some puppets who are born to suffering ghastly situations.
Ramji: Well, the ghastly situations are ghastly because there is absolute beauty too. And the beauty is only beautiful because of the ghastly. Isn’t it? That’s just the way Isvara is set up. And if I don’t like the set-up, all it’s going to do is put me at odds with the set-up. Or, if I like the set-up, that’s not going to do me any good either, because the set-up is going to create situations that are not in harmony with what I like. So it’s futile to try to change life. Let it be.
Marie: Exactly. I know, because I just inherited the Marie-puppet Isvara put in front of me. I can’t claim all the good or all the bad. It just got put in front of me. And the same for all puppets!
Ramji: Everybody is like that. That’s where the compassion comes because you understand we are all in the same boat! We are all objects. We are all puppets of Isvara. You appreciate other people’s suffering. You feel the pain. And you know there is nothing you can do about it. Then you are compassionate toward yourself because you don’t make yourself feel miserable because of others’ bad karma, which somehow they earned.
Marie: So that applies to the Hitler puppet (oppressor puppets) and the puppets in the concentration camps (victim puppets). That got put in front of them!
Ramji: Yes, that is right. For instance, Jews don’t ask to be born Jews. One of them propagated the idea that they were special, “chosen” people. Everybody likes to flatter himself or herself. It’s more or less harmless – until it isn’t. But it’s ignorant, because God doesn’t choose anybody, because everyone is born of God; everyone is God’s chosen person. You have no choice about it. The primary relationship of every sentient being is its relationship to God. I suppose it wasn’t dangerous when they were a majority in their homeland. Somehow they moved to other countries by no fault of their own where “others” didn’t like the idea that a different kind of person living among them is superior to them in the eyes of God. That’s natural. The resentments build up and one day, owing to the law of karma, you find yourself in a pickle. Whose fault is that? It’s nobody’s fault. It’s Isvara’s fault, if you need to blame something. Actually, it’s ignorance of Isvara that causes it. That’s the way the situation is set up: if you walk into a situation where you are not in control, and you start acting big, Isvara will decapitate you. Whose fault is that?
Marie: And the same for Hitler. He was another puppet on a string.
Ramji: Yes. He was a mess. He was suffering as much as anybody, always angry. That anger, fear, hatred, was a big mistake, but he couldn’t help it. He was disturbed and didn’t think clearly, wasn’t grateful for all the success. So he went after the Russians, and Isvara trimmed his sails, to say the least. Isvara punished him and all his followers; in other words, his own thoughts punished him. I hope Isvaradoesn’t punish me for saying this; even though it is about compassion and it’s the truth, somebody is going to write that I’m anti-Semitic. Nobody is more sympathetic than I am. Both oppressors and the oppressed deserve sympathy. That doesn’t mean that what the Germans did was right or that it was the Jews’ fault for thinking they were special and keeping to themselves. God is beyond good and evil. It watches. It rewards the righteous and it punishes evildoers because God is non-dual love. Most people never get that understanding, sad to say.
Marie: And even if the thought arises “I wish it were different” you see it as an object in front of you and you don’t identify with it. Right?
Ramji: Yes. There you go! That’s the secret. So taking a stand in awareness is just keeping awareness in mind all the time, keeping the thought “I’m awareness” in mind all the time. Because the thought “I am awareness” happens to be a true thought because that is what you are. That’s what you are: you are the awareness of the thoughts.
So it’s a very simple thing, actually, once you are able to understand this subject-object business.
Marie: It is apparent to me that when I’m in different physical environments different thoughts arise in front of me, awareness, that the Marie-object typically doesn’t have. Am I picking up the thoughts that are in front of the geographic area? Is that what’s going on?
Ramji: Yes. There is only one mind because there is only one awareness, so as your subtle body moves from one place to another you pick up the thoughts that are in the environment.
Marie: So, in a way, as I navigate the Marie-object in front of me, with the apparent free will, I can use that information to help her out.
Ramji: Sure! Absolutely. That’s what karma yoga is: it is acknowledging the thoughts of the other people in your environment, taking them into account as being as valuable as your thoughts and responding appropriately keeping the situation in mind, not just trying to impose Marie-thoughts on the situation. Most people in a situation are trying to impose their will on the situation. They want to extract from the situation what they want. Isvara has put you there in that situation to make sure you extract something, but you need to make a contribution at the same time. So that’s acknowledging and serving Isvara. And that is called dharma, or appropriate response, appropriate action.
Marie: Along the lines of something you have said before in your recordings, you don’t like small talk. I don’t like small talk either – I like meaningful exchanges. Is that part of the contribution to Isvara to the extent possible, to bring the conversation to something more meaningful?
Ramji: Well, if you can, that’s nice. When there is an opening, it means Isvara is asking you to contribute something. But you don’t want to impose your values on other people until you understand they are going to be receptive to those values. This is not religion. This is not like, “I pray for you because you are such a wicked person. I know the only way and I’m going to ask Jesus to look after you.” You can think the thought, “Please, Jesus, wake this poor person up,” and be friendly and polite and give them a few minutes of your time and move on.
