Marian: So, when you say, “…not realizing that everything comes from and belongs to Isvara,” you mean Isvara 2 (ultimately the Self)?
Sundari: Yes.
Marian: Because the jiva is the Self all the time but appears as a jiva (and everything else) because of Isvara 2…
Sundari: The Self seems to appear as a jiva when Maya appears. Pure consciousness in association with Maya = Isvara in the role of Creator. If the Self is unchanging, which we know it is, it can never appear as anything other than as itself, pure consciousness. When Maya appears, and the Creation seems to pop out, the Self apparently under the spell of ignorance appears as a jiva, or subtle body. See more below.
Marian: And when you say, “It’s not Isvara’s ‘function’ to operate as the ring, because Isvara’s only function is to provide the jiva with a field of objects within which to work out its karma,” you mean what Isvara?
Sundari: The Self, pure consciousness, in association with Maya, aka Isvara 2.
Marian: Isvara 2 apparently changes… I used the word Isvara only for Isvara 2 in my email. The jiva/ego/doer ignores its part of Isvara 2, ignores it’s the Self (Isvara 1) and “owns” the ring, i.e. dedicates his efforts to making life adapt to his likes and dislikes. Originally I meant to say that it is Isvara 2’s job (via Maya and gunas) to “make the world go round,” i.e. to keep the natural laws and the field going so that the jivas can apparently function. A wave is a wave as part of the ocean, all being water – yet the forces that move the waves being of the ocean’s, neither the wave’s nor the water’s.
Sundari: It’s a question of language. It was not clear you meant this in your previous email. The way you worded your statements implied that you thought Isvara enters form and takes on the function of the forms, which of course is impossible. Mithya is not real and has no impact on Isvara 2, because Isvara 2 is really pure consciousness.
Marian: Isvara 1 is the Self and is ultimately real.
Sundari: Isvara 1 is not “ultimately” real. That implies that the Self is not real at some point. Real means always real, never not present, never changing.
Marian: Isvara 2 is not real, it’s mithya. Right? I read Isvara, Isvara 1 and Isvara 2… When you say, “Neither Isvara nor Isvara 2 are ultimately real,” I don’t understand…
Sundari: Apologies, that was a typo on my part. I meant to say Isvara 2 and the eternal Jiva are not ultimately real. There is only one eternal Jiva appearing as the many apparently unique individuals, or non-eternal (personal) jivas. Although it seems like the personal jiva lives for a moment in time, in truth the Jiva is indestructible because the non-eternal jiva is consciousness too (jivatman) and is always present, but not always as the apparent person, or subtle body.
You may know it, but here is one of the greatest of all great sayings in Vedanta, because it captures the essence of the teachings: Brahma Satyam Jagan Mithya Jivo Bramaiva Na Parah. It means:
“I, the Self, am limitless consciousness, and the Jiva is non-different from me.”
Isvara and the eternal Jiva (jivatman) are eternal principles in consciousness, which only manifest whenever Maya manifests. Maya is also an eternal principle or power in consciousness. As stated previously, there is essentially no difference between Jiva and Isvara except in their capacity to create. Isvara creates the objective world, and Jiva creates its subjective world, its world of thoughts and feelings – which also come from Isvara, the gunas. Isvara is omniscient, creates all objects, subtle and gross, and the jiva only knows the objects it has contact with. It cannot create a flower, the sun, the moon and the stars. This is called the Creation, or cause-and-effect teaching.
This discussion hinges on whether or not the apparent reality (and Isvara as Creator) actually exists. It seems to exist because you as jiva can experience it, and it is clear that the Field is intelligently designed and run. So there must be an intelligent “Creator” behind the Creation. But if the jiva (mithya/duality) is just a superimposition onto non-duality, the apparent reality is as good as non-existent because you can negate it with Self-knowledge.
The Creation teaching is confusing and extremely subtle, but it is a means to an end. Its main purpose (as all other prakriyas adopted by the Upanishads) is not to make you believe in causation, or the Creation. It is to reveal the truth of the Self being attribute-free, limitless, partless, beginningless and endless consciousness. And that the Creation is neither real nor unreal. The Creation has a dependent reality on you, consciousness. The aim of the Creation teaching is to eliminate all the variable non-essential factors (vyatireka), which leave the one invariable essential factor (anvaya) – the Self, consciousness.
Therefore, since the Self never changes, the cause-and-effect proof is meant to unfold the fact that not only is the Self limitless, you are non-separate from it. The proof works because it is a result of knowledge, only. Experience is a secondary factor because consciousness is the only factor that can never be negated, no matter how materialistic the investigation.
Once you have understood the cause-and-effect teaching, the next stage of Self-inquiry goes further, to the non-origination theory. Vedanta says that the cause-and-effect prakriya is a set-up and not the whole truth, because the non-origination teaching (Mandukya karika) states that there is no Creation to begin with. How can there be?
It answers the logical question: How can sat, consciousness, be the basis of the material Creation if it is non-dual consciousness? The material Creation is not material. It is a projection caused by Maya, which is not the same NOR not different from sat, existence/consciousness. You can’t get something out of something that is incapable of modification. Sat is not the cause of anything. How could it be? If it was, it would not be non-dual.
The Mandukya also points out that the Self implies not-Self. When you know you are the Self, there is no satya and mithya nor Isvara-Jiva, for you, anymore. Satya and mithya are just concepts/principles used to teach you that you are the Self, and can be discarded. They are teachings designed to destroy the notion of doership. Mithya “becomes” satya because it was satya all along. You see everything as just IS-NESS, a direct experience of existence as your identity, the Self. While the jiva still apparently experiences differences, they are known to be only apparent, not real, differences. Duality remains or seems to, but you never identify with it again.
Marian: And because duality does not disappear, and because within mithya the jiva can apparently create its subjective reality, thought management, karma yoga, the gunas, are such important tools – the apparent jiva still has to apparently function in its life. Discrimination, discrimination, discrimination…
Sundari: Yes, until such time as Self-knowledge is the default position of the mind and it never again conditions to ignorance/duality, not even for a moment, eternal vigilance is the name of the game. When Self-knowledge is firm and all three stages of Self-inquiry completed, karma yoga and discrimination are automatic, not as a practice, but as knowledge. Satya and mithya are never confused, because everything is known to be a dream appearing in you, the Self. And you still appear as the apparent jiva with its particular Isvara-given character, but you know it is an actor in a play. Death is no more, life is love. And love is easy and very simple because it is who you are. Even when the mind and the field seem to change, you never change.
I hope this helps.
~ Much love, Sundari
