Thank you for your careful reply.
“That confidence to let go and just be the Self will come”. Yes – recently I have only just realised that Vedanta means identifying with the Self. I know I have heard it a thousand times, at least – but there was a specific set of “clicks” in the last few weeks where I first realised this to be true, in the mind, like becoming conscious of being conscious. There was nothing other than this – and logically there came shortly after this idea “then all these other things I see are not mine”.
Sundari: Yes, this is everyone’s unexamined experience because everyone is conscious of being conscious, but most people do not know that consciousness is just the reflection, and Consciousness is their true identity. It is one thing to know it intellectually, which is indirect knowledge. But for Self-knowledge to actualize means there must be a full transference of the ego identity to Consciousness. And that is a very subtle process because the ego is very adept at mimicking it.
For instance, who does the ‘I’ refer to in your statement above? Your language is normal in discussing the process of assimilation, so I am not knocking it. We need to use words and all words are duality. But if you parse the words from a nondual perspective, you must ask: who is the witness of the ‘clicks’, and what is it witnessing? The experiencing witness sees the change in focus attention, but it’s still there.
The non-experiencing witness is the non-dual Self, but it functions in two ways, as the opaque witness or jiva (saguna brahman – with qualities) and the transparent witness (without qualities – nirguna brahman). The opaque witness is the mind/ego watching itself, and the transparent witness is the Self, pure Awareness. The Self is a seer that never begins or ceases and is the all-seeing eye or “I” that sees only itself because there are no objects for it to see. It is self-effulgent as there is nothing but it Self. Eventually, we must drop all these terms, even nirguna brahman because that implies saguna.
With reference to your statement, ‘then all these other things I see are not mine’, refers to the experiencing witness. As the Self, what other things would there be, seeing as reality is nondual? See how tricky nonduality is? It would be more appropriate to say that the Self, seeing only itself, is that which knows the seer with reference to the seen, only when Maya is operating. The Self-aware Self appears as a seer; but it never actually is a seer, unless seeing refers to its own Self.
Whereas, when ignorance is operating, the experiencing entity or jiva thinks that the seer is different from the seen, the subject and object are different. Isvara is also known as saguna brahman because it operates Maya (the gunas), but unlike the jiva, it is never deluded by them. When tamas and rajas arise in saguna brahman, then Awareness apparently becomes a jiva and is deluded by Maya.
Frank: A few days later was an additional logical step – then whose is it? in my mind was “then it is yours” so – it is not mine, it is yours (Iswara) and suddenly I was standing there free, I could truly see and understand what is meant by freedom. Freedom is immediately logically coupled with “then this is not mine / me” – it is Iswara. I know now that freedom cannot exist without complete deference to Iswara – they are one.
Sundari: Freedom is a tricky thing because though it does require negating all objects, ultimately, it is about non-separation. Dissolving the subject/object split. The process is first to identify the two orders of reality (satya/mithya) and discriminate between them, then disidentify as ‘not me’ all objects/experience, and then ultimately – there is nothing but ME. Satya ‘becomes’ mithya because there is no other option. It is only when duality has the power to delude the mind that ignorance is a problem. That is why the scripture says you don’t need to have ignorance removed by Self-knowledge, you just need to know what it is, and remain firm in your identity as the nondual Self.
So, again, who does the ‘I” refer to? If you are speaking as the Self or non-experiencing witness, you need to include the jiva in that equation. It is true that freedom from the experiencing entity has to include the understanding of Isvara – but not because Isvara needs deference. Isvara is not a person or a deity but a principle in Awareness, just like the jiva. Both the jiva in its role as a created being and Isvara in its role as Creator share the same identity as the Self, with vastly different abilities in mithya. And they can both be negated with reference to the Self because neither are permanent or unchanging. But their essence, Awareness, is permanent and unchanging.
Frank: This knowledge is not permanent I know – but I have a new admiration and love for the words “Self -evident” in the way Swami Dayananda says it particularly. He is in an interview with a press reporter on YouTube – and he is so compassionate and helping him understand – and he uses this phrase often. This has kept coming back to mind, the way he says it – like “Self….Evident” – Evident from the standpoint of the Self.
It is beautiful – I have marked the point in time for you https://youtu.be/m1fVJEI3EMc?t=738
Sundari: So true, yet not evident at all, to most. The logical progression of that line of thinking is of course the non-origination teaching – namely:
How can Sat, nonduality, be the basis of the material creation if it is non-dual Awareness? Nondual means nothing other than. The material creation is not material. It is a projection caused by Maya, which is not the same OR not different from Sat, Existence/Awareness. You can’t get something out of something that is incapable of modification. Sat is not the cause of anything. How could it be? If it was, it would not be non-dual. But it is understanding the meaning of ‘not the same and not different’ that is the hard part of nonduality.
Frank: Recently I have been listening to Ramji’s brilliant Mandukya teachings – I still have ignorance about it which really bugs me in a good way. A few weeks ago while asleep, I had a dream and as sometimes happens woke up in the dream (lucid dreaming) and now this idea came to me “So you want to see the Self? Ok!” and suddenly the room I was in, just a normal dream room, like a bedroom, lit up so bright I was stunned – like a reverse negative film – incandescent – everything was still there but blasting light backwards through my dream eyes into me or from me – there was no difference.
I then woke up and initially had no recollection. A bit later in the day I remembered it at work in the bathroom and was shaken and very happy – but – not so fast – now awake came the knowledge later in the office “yes, but this now is also a dream, and “I” as Jiva don’t really see this yet”.
Sundari: Again, who is the seer and what did it see? See above. There is still a sense of separation here, a wonder with an uplifting experience, a sense of ‘something happened’. No experience in itself is that important, other than for one thing. All experience is meant to deliver only one bit of knowledge – that you are the non-experience witness of the experience. Miss that and you have missed the import of the experience, which always ends.
Frank: While the ‘waker’ takes the waking state to be “more real” – as this Jiva knows the dream is “not real” and has evidence that it is not (lucid experiences and, can infer this even without), like in the film “Inception” (Leonardo Di Caprio) I know that the waking state is logically, also a dream but I don’t have a spinning top to check, I have Vedanta :).
Sundari: All you need to be clear on this point is the simple definition of what constitutes real, unchanging, ever-present, and unreal – always changing, not always present. Who can argue with that?
Frank: Knowledge has done this, with faith that it is so – experience won’t. It would not matter how many light fantastic dreams I have, it is only the knowledge and the faith I have that will be permanent, provided I stay true to dharma. This has recently become even more important, really affecting actions I thought I could always get away with. The reminders that come from Ishwara are thick and fast – just little things like taking care of behaviour, speech and so on and it is a constant teaching experience with real results, almost instant feedback and with even the grace of understanding outcomes beforehand, it just requires some mental discipline.
Sundari: Knowledge and faith are not permanent – they are a means to an end. When they have served their purpose, they should be discarded as objects known to me, the Self. Who needs faith or knowledge when you are the Self? If you think you have gained knowledge you are still stuck in duality. Yes, of course following dharma is the best way to stay on course in life, regardless of your level of Self-awareness or lack of it. But when Self-knowledge has actualized, there is no dharma for you – you are Dharma with a bid ‘D” because there is nothing other than you. How or why could you ever go against your Self?
That said, until such time as Self-knowledge obtains, we need the right values, to follow dharma, we need discipline and mind management. I am talking about this issue on Sunday and what it entails. No way around it. So keep up the good work, and keep discriminating!
Frank: Deep sleep is the toughest – there is no experience for the Jiva – it is gone, both the experience and the Jiva! From this is profound knowledge – as a Jiva I “die” every day, and that death itself is no different, in terms of knowledge, is both liberating but uncomfortable: it happens every day. This says all that I thought I was disappears and reappears, refreshed by the grace of Ishwara.
Sundari: Deep sleep is called ‘almost enlightened’ because the mind is subsumed into the Causal body. All living beings, including plants and trees, need sleep. You know why? Because it is so hard on the mind to be alive and conscious. Duality is so very heavy. Especially for us humans because we have the ability to be self-reflective, to think and make choices that break dharma. Plus we are convinced we are doers, which wears us out. Animals and plants have it easier because they don’t have this problem, but they still need a break from being ‘awake’.
Deep sleep is the clincher in discriminating satya from mithya, that is true, assuming you know what is the same and what is different about both orders of reality. The jiva is just an idea that appears in you, Awareness. It seems to be attached to a Subtle and gross body, but those too are just objects appearing in you. There is no substance to the apparent substance of reality. Only thought.
Frank: The answer, while the entire Jiva rebels against this idea with fear, is seeing all the fear come up, the loss, the disappearance – but then comes the start of the logical inference, then what else? What other escape does my Jiva fly to, to escape death now? The substitutes offered are even worse, lame and capricious. At some point even this is enough.
Sundari: That is just the ego identity afraid of its demise, looking for something to hang its identity onto. The Subtle body does not ‘die’, it returns to the Causal body. Only the five elements get dispersed and returned to original matter. You cannot die, only the body is subject to death and decay. And seeing that the body is not real, why worry about it?
Frank: It seems such a relaxing word; “Enough”. It describes for me the Jiva giving up, having gone round in circles so often, repeating, until there is enough done, enough sought, for the mind to realise, from the knowledge of this experience that it is enough. Are we done now? No? Go on then, again…and I just know I’ll be coming back to the same point.
Sundari: There is no way to reason this out in mithya – you will be stuck with the always approaching never arriving thinking of infinite regress. Who is giving up, done enough, that is done now? It is the doer entity that wears itself out that must be banished forever, if freedom from limitation is the aim. Until then, you will be ‘returning’ to the same point because you never left it. That’s the whirlpool of Maya.
Frank: This I know now was the first feeling I had when I met Ramji – I had had enough of everything and I just knew when I met him, if this was not it, there really was nothing, there was nothing left and this would be enough, if it was not. I was content but knew that if not, then there really was nothing. I was totally willing to give it a go as there was a big wall behind me of nothing much I had had enough of it all. Thank you both so much. Much love forever to you both.
Sundari: You were very fortunate that the existential burnout of being a doer, by Isvara’s grace, brought you to James and to Vedanta.
You are always so welcome, again my sincere apologies for taking so long to reply!
Much love
Sundari
