Franco: What’s the difference between jiva and the doer/ego? I’m having a hard time differentiating the two
Sundari: As always with non dual thinking, it is a matter of perspective. Who is having a hard time differentiating? From the Self’s point of view, the conceptual jiva/ego (individual) is just a thought identified as the doer – the one with the body/mind and a story, who does things to get what it wants and to avoid what it doesn’t want. There is no difference between the doer and the ego – neither are real – meaning, not always present and always changing, ‘manufactured’ by Isvara, the Causal body, or Maya, beginningless ignorance.
From the perspective of the individual, the ego trying to differentiate itself from the Self is a pointless exercise, it cannot be done without Self-knowledge because the Self is not an object of perception. It is what makes the perceiver and perception possible. The ego trying to define the Self sees it as an object to obtain, something other than it because duality is involved. This is why there is such confusion in the spiritual world regarding what nonduality is.
Most of the supposedly nondual teachings out there (other than Vedanta), confuse satya (nonduality) with mithya (duality), or impose satya onto mithya, because they do not have a teaching on how to differentiate the two, which Vedanta does have. In fact, this is where all the teaching of Vedanta takes place – understanding who and what the jiva (personal) / Jiva (impersonal) is, who and what Isvara 1 (Pure Consciousness) & Isvara 2 (creator wielding Maya) is, what is different and what is the same about both. Without this teaching, freedom from and for the jiva is not possible.
This topic is covered extensively in Inquiry into Existence, in the Mandukya Upanishad, as well as Essence of Enlightenment, Bhagavad Gita and other texts. Though the explanation below is condensed, it is still a bit long, so persevere as it is the most important teaching for moksa.
How Isvara and Jiva are the Same
Isvara and the Universal Jiva are eternal impersonal principles in Awareness which manifest whenever Maya manifests, which is also an eternal principle or power in Awareness. Though there is a difference between the impersonal and personal jiva explained below, there is essentially no difference between Jiva and Isvara except in their capacity to create. Isvara creates the objective world and Jiva creates its subjective world, its world of thoughts and feelings—which also come from Isvara, the gunas. Isvara creates all objects, subtle and gross and the jiva only knows the objects it has contact with. It cannot create a flower, the sun, the moon, and the stars. Isvara is conscious because it is the self plus Maya, the creator of jiva. The jiva appears to be conscious (but is not) because Consciousness shines on the Subtle body, which is why Vedanta says Isvara and Jiva are ‘essentially’ the same.
Isvara is not a person with likes and dislikes like the Jiva, or Subtle body. And neither Isvara’s creation nor jiva’s creation hides Consciousness. It is always present prior to the creation and prior to the birth of individuals. You can’t have a macrocosmic creation without Consciousness. Something had to exist before Isvara could ‘bang’ the creation into existence. That something we call Paramatma, pure Consciousness, free of both Isvara and Jiva. If this is true, which we know it is, then we can eliminate both Jiva and Isvara as real and take ourselves to be Consciousness—the Self.
Consciousness (me) is never affected by Isvara’s creation or by jiva’s creation. I am the knower of both.
Or you can look at it this way: It is clear that jiva is conscious. It is also clear that Isvara is conscious because the creation is consciously designed. Inference tells us that, and inference is a valid means of knowledge. We do not have to meet Isvara in person (not that Isvara is a person) to know that it is conscious. So, if the jiva’s consciousness depends on Isvara’s consciousness and Isvara’s consciousness depends on Paramatma, Pure Consciousness, then both jiva and Isvara are Pure Consciousness. If you don’t depend on the world or on the person, you certainly can’t be either one of them. An effect (Jiva) is just the cause (Isvara) appearing in a form.
We can’t apply the same logic to Isvara except loosely because Consciousness does not ‘cause’ Isvara. Isvara in association with Maya, Beautiful Intelligent Ignorance (creative principle), is something altogether different. Isvara is not an effect but it is a cause with reference to the creation. There is only one Awareness/Consciousness out of which everything arises and depends upon, but Awareness is always free of the objects. Awareness is adjata, unborn.
Vedanta is the path of the unborn, because it reveals that although there appears to be a creation, nothing ever really happened, from Awareness’ point of view. All objects are made up of Awareness and dissolve into Awareness in that they appear in the mind and the mind appears in Awareness. It is tough and counter-intuitive to assimilate this because the mind is conditioned by the hypnosis of duality – Maya. The ego has a hard time accepting that it, the mind or individual jiva (Subtle Body) like all objects, is an object known to you, Awareness. Taking a stand in Awareness as Awareness requires negating the personal jiva identity. Not denying its existence, simply understanding that it is not real. When that takes place, you know that the Jiva is Jivatman – the nondual impersonal Self.
The jiva and its subjective world are called “apparently real” because neither is always present and is always changing. As long as the apparent entity or the jiva is still embodied in the apparent reality, enlightened or not, it is subject to Isvara, the Creator. We know the world is not real because when you analyze it, it resolves into empty space and space resolves into Consciousness as far as you cannot know space without Consciousness. It is an object known to you. There is just you, Consciousness, in which the jiva or person appears in a particular a priori environment i.e. Isvara.
Isvara creates, sustains, and destroys the whole universe. Within Isvara’s creation are innumerable jivas, individuals: plants, animals, humans, insects, etc. Jivas are living beings with gross, Subtle, and causal bodies. Human jivas have intellect which makes them self-aware, self-reflective. This means that they can interpret their experiences. The way that a jiva’s Subtle Body interprets its experience is its ‘world.’ Its interpretation is its ‘creation.’ When we say the world would not be there without the mind (Subtle Body) we mean jiva’s interpretation, its projection, would not be there, not that the material world, the senses, the five sheaths or Subtle Body and the vasanas would not be here. We call the jiva’s creation “pratibhasika satyam” or “jiva srsti”, the subjective reality, and it forms the basis of our ‘individuality’. Even though in truth there is only one jiva, our personal likes and dislikes shape how we see and experience everything, creating the illusion of individuality. Isvara’s creation is called ‘vyavaharika satyam,’ the objective world. This is the world of science, the objects and the laws of physics which are not under the control of any jiva.
This teaching is vital so the jiva does not confuse its creation with Isvara’s. The jiva is in Isvara’s creation and is required to respond to it. This is called dharma, or appropriate response. If it responds appropriately to what Isvara wants, the jiva will be in harmony with Isvara, the creation, meaning its environment. But if it is living in its own world and gets a request from Isvara and responds according to its fears and desires, likes and dislikes, it is quite possible that the jiva will run afoul of Isvara (its circumstances) and suffer. Thus, this teaching makes us aware of the difference between the subjective and the objective realities. If it is clear which is which, you can choose to follow dharma, not the minds programmed likes and dislikes, in case they are different. There is no problem with jivas’ desires as long as they conform to dharma.
The jiva looks out through the body, identifies with the senses, perceives a world, and thinks that it is seeing what is actually there. It knows it didn’t create it, but it sees itself as separate, incomplete, so chases objects to complete itself. The saying ‘the world is there because I see it” is true from the point of view of Awareness, not the jiva. The jiva, which is actually Awareness, can’t perceive a world unless Isvara has already done its job as a creator. The jiva is seemingly responsible for its external creation as far as it doesn’t exist (for it) unless it perceives it. However, it should be clear from the example of deep sleep that the jiva doesn’t create the world because there is no world for it when it is asleep. Yet the world is there for other waking jivas. That shows that some other factor, and we call it Isvara, is the creator.
Franco: Is the doer a jiva and Jiva with capital J the eternal principle? Is “Franco” the doer and the apparent fact of my individuality Jiva? As always, thank you very much in advance.
Sundari: See above. The definition of Jiva is Awareness with a Subtle Body. The Eternal of Universal Jiva is a principle, a tattva, not a specific person. It is actually Pure Awareness, Paramatma. There is really only one person or Subtle Body, appearing as many; it appears as if there are individuals who are all different because of their particular uphadi – their ‘individuality’. or personal conditioning. When the jiva (ego) is identified with its uphadi it is called a ‘samsari’ – a mind under the spell of Maya, duality.
This is a nondual reality, not a duality, all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. Therefore, there is only one principle operating, not two – the nondual Self, Awareness, the witness to the apparent show ‘we’ call ‘reality’. It is witnessing ‘Franco’, the personal jiva, having a hard time discriminating between itself as the Self/Jivatman and the objects appearing in it, a.k.a., Franco the conceptual entity/ego/doer, under the spell of Maya.
The one Jiva appears as three ‘types’ of ‘jiva’:
1). The ‘small’ jiva/doer/ego, a conceptual or individual entity – a superimposition onto the Self, like a mirage. It has a name, a body/mind and a story it identifies with, calling it ‘me and mine’. It is nothing more than a thought you keep alive. As stated above, this jiva is called the doer/ego or the human being, the one who is totally identified with the body/mind (including all experience) = samsari.
2) There is the jiva who knows aboutAwareness, but it does not know what it means to be Awareness. This jiva has indirect knowledge and is often called a Self-realized jiva. This jiva has had an experience of being Awareness but has not actualized Self-knowledge, so the knowledge is not firm, ignorance is still present. This is the one who re-identifies with objects or still seeks experience because the vasanas are still binding and doership has not been fully dissolved. The jiva program or conceptual entity (ignorance) is still operative, blocking access to Self-knowledge.
3). Finally, the Jiva with a capital ‘J” is impersonal, and has permanent direct Self-knowledge because he/she knows that their true identity IS Awareness, and they know what it means to be Awareness, while still apparently manifesting as a jiva or individual. This means that the jiva identity is known to be merely conceptual, Self-knowledge translates fully into ALL aspects of the person’s life. This is the jivanmukta, the Self no longer under the spell of ignorance or the Self-actualised jiva. Together, Jiva and Isvara weave the dream and are the dream of Maya, giving rise to Franco’s apparent individuality, but the jivanmukta, though free to live and act according to its svadharma, never confuses the two again.
The Three Jiva States:
Jiva, enlightened or not, also manifests as three ‘little’ jivas according to the state that it experiences:
1) As viswa, the waking state entity. In this state its mind is totally extroverted. It is hypnotized by duality. It chases and consumes experiences. Viswa appears in two forms: (a) free of identification with objects (a jivanmukta) or (b) as a doer (karta) or “person” identified with objects (a samsari)). Both a jivanmukta, a liberated person, and a samsari, a bound person, have a common identity as nondual Awareness.
2) As taijasa, the ‘shining one,’ Awareness with a Subtle Body, illuminating the dream state. The Subtle Body is turned inward facing the Causal Body, the vasanas. The experiences it has are just experiences of the vasanas. Jiva (ego) is not present in the dream state in the same way that it is present in the waking state. In the waking state Jiva identifies with the doer/ego so the doer is not seen as an object. It is thought to be the subject. In the dream state there is also identification but the doer/ego can also appear as an object illumined by taijasa, Awareness reflected on the Subtle Body; in the dream you can see the waker going about its business, walking, talking, eating, etc. The doer/ego is a dream doer/ego similar in some respects to viswa but with unique powers. These powers are inherent in the dream state and do not belong to taijasa although in normal dreams it identifies with them. The doer-ego and the events appearing in the dream are just waking state events that have become vasanas that are out-picturing as dream events.
3) As the sleeper, prajna, in the deep sleep state. Prajna means ‘almost enlightened’. It is almost enlightened because it experiences the limitlessness and bliss of Awareness but lacks knowledge of what it is experiencing because the intellect is not present in deep sleep.
The Subtle Body disappears in the deep sleep state as does the Microcosmic Causal Body (personal subconscious). The personal subconscious belongs to the conceptual jiva/ego and produces the jiva’s karma. The deep sleep state is defined as a state with no mental activity. It is the same for everyone because the personal subconscious is subsumed into Isvara, the Macrocosmic Causal Body. Deep sleep is the presence tamoguna, alone. Rajas and sattva are dormant. There is no sense of individuality (ahamkara) in this state because the Subtle Body of the individual is not there to be conditioned; the ahamkara belongs to the Subtle Body. The Macrocosmic Causal Body, another name for Isvara, is the deep sleep state.
The dream state has two aspects: waking dream and sleep dream. It is called the pratibasika state, the subjective state of reality. It is jiva’s creation (sristi). It is not created directly by Isvara but is responsible for an individual jiva’s interpretation of reality. In the dream state (whether the jiva is awake or asleep) vasanas influence how reality is interpreted by the jiva. Isvara provides the raw material for the interpretation, but not the interpretation itself. Ultimately it is all Isvara, but to get to that understanding…which is tantamount to moksha…the jiva has to understand what it is responsible for and Isvara’s role in jiva’s creations i.e. projections so that it can be free of both itself and Isvara.
No Perfecting the Jiva
A big problem in the spiritual world is that seekers believe that Self -realization or enlightenment will perfect or make the person limitless. It will not. As Awareness you are and always have been limitless. As the person you are and always will be imperfect and limited. Though life for the jiva will improve immeasurable, removing ignorance of your true nature does not necessarily mean that you change as a person, or that you have to become perfect or “holy”. The person never leaves the apparent reality and the apparent reality is limited. The person is fine the way they are; they do not need to be perfected, only understood. When you know your true identity as the Self you will not cause injury or break dharma in any way as a jiva. You know that Isvara’s world is perfect the way it is, all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. The person no longer has an ignorance problem, so therefore, discrimination between satya and mithya is no problem.
There is much more to this teaching, and it is very subtle and difficult to assimilate. but central to moksa. I hope this helps
Much love,
Sundari
