Franco: The Self is not free or bound, correct? These are dualistic terms.
Sundari: The Self is unlimited, which means not conditioned by anything, and as it can never be bound, freedom is its essential nature, not an attribute or something it gains. Like sweet is the essence of sugar or it could not be sugar. Vedanta uses the implied meaning of words to teach – and the statement you made in your last email- ‘It also means that I can only know this (that I am the Self) if seeming duality appears as the many’ – must be unpacked because it implies that the Self needs objects to know itself, which is not possible because there is only the Self. If you are thinking from the point of view of the jiva, duality, your statement is apparently true. It is not true from the nondual Self’s perspective, unless you have nondual vision. Then you know that everything you see is you.
The discrimination here is between the two orders of reality, which never meet but are not in opposition to each other, either: Satya/Consciousness, that which only knows itself for whom Maya/objects/knowing or sentiency does not apply – though it lends sentiency and existence to all objects. And mithya – the apparent reality, which though apparently inherently sentient, is not really. It borrows sentiency from Consciousness, like the moon borrows its light from the Sun.
Franco – you said: “As the non-experiencing entity, the Self needs nothing to know itself.” This is interesting. Because it seems to me that when Macrocosmic Sattva Guna seemingly arises, the potential for knowledge to arise is already in the template the superimposition. Then Macrocosmic Rajas explodes existence into many shards.
Sundari: Yes, sattva guna makes knowledge of objects (experience) for jiva possible. But all the gunas are also objects known to Consciousness. They are not real and they are not conscious – though through them the seemingly conscious creation manifests. The show of creation begins with prakriti, before any of the gunas actually manifest and are in subtle form called tanmatras. See below.
Franco: And Macrocosmic Tamas devolving into matter over billions of years evolves sentient beings who can experience knowledge.
Sundari: No, Franco. You are saying here that sentiency evolves out of matter – tamas. How is that possible as matter is inert? That is what the scientists are trying to prove and they will never succeed. Life is intelligent because Isvara is Consciousness, the Self, so Isvara in the role of creator, the jiva and life itself, owe intelligence to Consciousness. But as I said previously, Consciousness never enters the creation or there would be no escape from duality. Think of milk becoming cheese – you cannot get the milk back once it’s been transformed into cheese. Non-dual Consciousness cannot be modified by anything and cannot ‘enter’ anything because a) for Consciousness there is no actual creation and b) it (you) is all there is.
It may seem like life evolved over billions of years in the universe we take to be real if we are conditioned by Maya, duality. But which perspective are you taking, here? Satya or mithya? There is no time for Consciousness (and, as I pointed out, no creation), thus it is very difficult to explain the creation teaching, but let’s assume time existed.
Pure Macrocosmic Sattvic Prakriti is like a bright, clear mirror, capable of reflecting Consciousness (pratibimba chaitanya). It is the blueprint for all forms, the entire creation—the eternal truths, laws, jivas, karma, three gunas and five elements, space and time, all of which are still unmanifest, at this stage. It is pure intelligence and ‘knows’ everything thanks to the presence of Consciousness. It is not yet mixed with rajas and tamas.
Sattvic prakriti is Consciousness appearing as the knower, but it is nonetheless an object known to Consciousness. It is reflected consciousness. When rajas and tamas arise and pure sattva is contaminated, the mirror shatters into innumerable shards. Maya becomes avidya, or personal ignorance, multi-faceted, diverse, pluralistic, manifesting all objects sentient and insentient which all contain the essence of Consciousness, conditioned by rajas and tamas.
Isvara associated with Maya is independent of prakriti because Isvara is trigunaatita, beyond the gunas. Prakriti depends on Isvara, not the other way around. Isvara as Pure Consciousness in association with Maya gives rise to creation, and nondual Consciousness is the essence of and substratum for it, but it is always free of the creation, as stated several times now.
Franco: So, it seems to me that when Iswara arises in the form of Macrocosmic Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas, the experience of knowledge arising through sentient beings, happens. This can only happen if there is a sense of separation–not real just apparent separation, apparent duality, correct?
Sundari: See above. As I said, Consciousness in the form of sattva is pure intelligence and makes it possible for us to experience, feel, think and know things. Consciousness ‘becomes’ a knower when there are (apparent) objects for it to know. Isvara is also known as saguna brahman (the knower with qualities – the gunas) because it operates Maya, but unlike the jiva, it is never deluded by the gunas. When tamas and rajas arise in saguna brahman, then Awareness apparently becomes a jiva and is deluded by Maya.
Again, we must ask, who is the knower, and what is it known? The non-experiencing witness/knower is the non-dual Self, but it functions in two ways, as the opaque witness or jiva (saguna brahman – with qualities) and the transparent witness (without qualities – nirguna brahman). The opaque witness is the dualistic mind/ego watching itself conditioned by the gunas, and the transparent witness is the non-dual Self, pure Awareness, unconditioned and free of everything.
The Self is a seer/knower that never began or ceases and is the all-seeing eye or “I” that sees only itself because there are no objects for it to see. It is Self-knowing because there is nothing but itself. It would be more appropriate to say that the Self, seeing only itself, is that which knows the seer with reference to the seen, only when Maya is operating. The Self-aware Self appears as a seer/knower; but it never actually is a seer, unless seeing refers to its own Self.
Whereas, when ignorance is operating the jiva thinks that the seer/knower is different from the seen/known, the subject and object are different. This is what your statement above is saying. Always ask yourself this whenever a doubt or question like this arises: Who is it that knows, which perspective am I taking here: is it satya/Self (without qualities/nirguna) or is it mithya/jiva (with qualities – gunas)?
Is there a Maya (guna) filter I am looking through, or is it non-dual vision? It’s easy to get confused because nonduality is so counter-intuitive, the gunas are very good at their job of conditioning the mind, which is therefore entrained to think dualistically. But if you hold onto the logic of the flawless nondual teachings as your guiding rope out of the hypnosis of duality, eventually, you will be firmly established in non-dual vision.
Remember that Isvara does not ‘arise’ because Isvara is the Self and is never not present. When Maya manifests, or ‘arises’, Consciousness/Isvara in association with Maya manifests the creation. You are correct that knowledge of objects (things), sentiency, arises with the creation because it arises from Consciousness. But what knowledge are we talking about here? Object knowledge or Self-knowledge? There is a big difference. Duality makes it possible for us to know and experience things/objects, as I said twice already.
But duality also traps the mind in ignorance – limitation and separation – the cause of suffering. SELF-KNOWLEDGE is not an object of knowledge – it does not ‘arise’ because it is always present as the unlimited non-experiencing witness of the manifest or unmanifest creation, always free of it. You either have access to it or you don’t, but you are nonetheless never not the Self. When the mind is purified and qualified, Self-knowledge removes the ignorance standing in the way of appreciating our true identity as the Self.
Franco: You said: “It does not exist ‘in’ forms, yet it is the Existence which lends existence (form) to all forms. Duality is a superimposition onto nonduality. It is not real – merely an apparition.”
Franco: I agree. But it happens, or you and I seemingly could not be having a written dialogue. Are you saying that matter is not Pure AWARENESS appearing as the many forms? That they never have any contact at all. Yes, that is true. But it seems like that. It seems that it is contactless contact. What a magical appearance isn’t it?
Sundari: “Seems like’ is the hallmark of Maya – the great deluder. It makes the unchanging appear to be changing, it creates the illusion of the subject/object split. It is the ultimate magician. Whether you ‘agree’ or not is not the point, Franco. The both/and of the nondual scripture is very subtle and hard to grasp but it is not up for interpretation and nor does it care what you think about it. It is always a matter of discriminating the Self, you, from the objects that appear in you.
I did say that all forms have an apparent existence that we can experience – and that all forms/objects sentient or not owe their existence to Consciousness. Nothing exists without Consciousness and as there is only Consciousness, everything must be Consciousness. Is a sunbeam different from the Sun? Yes, and no. The sunbeam is made up of the sun, but the Sun exists without the sunbeam, whereas the sunbeam does not exist without the Sun. Got it?
I also said that Consciousness does not enter the creation though it seems to, and yes, it is quite magical in some ways. Nobody can explain Maya, not even the sages. In many ways it should be impossible that the creation exists, yet it does. The only thing that matters is understanding what it is to be free of it because the hypnosis of duality causes limitation, bondage and all suffering great and small.
When we can discriminate satya from mithya without having to think about it, we can really enjoy the fact that all objects are Consciousness, ME, but Consciousness, ME, is free of all objects. Life is so beautiful and intelligent, and can also be so awful and destructive. Yet inasmuch as there is a creation and a jiva, we are very privileged to be here in ‘human’ form because it is only from this vantage point that we can realize the Self. To be alive in body/mind and live free of duality as the nondual Self is the most fun anyone can have.
Franco: I like to entertain the idea that God wants to know ITSELF through the many. It is just simpler. At least it seems like that. That makes me happy.
Sundari: You are such a sweet and pure man, Franco. Whatever makes you happy is a good thing! As the scripture says: ‘in whatever form you worship me, I will come to you to make your faith strong.’ However, God/Isvara does not have ‘wants’ because it is not a person but nondual Consciousness. All the same, the exquisite intelligence that is Isvara wielding Maya responds to us, seemingly quite personally, especially when we are totally surrendered to it and live in prayer and gratitude. As you do.
Much love
Sundari
