Thank you again for your answer and for sure it really helps a lot!
I’m coming back about the understanding about who is asking the question, the Jiva or the Self? I know it is the main practice, until it becomes natural, to distinguish satya from mithya and applying it to everything. It is always coming back to it, in order at the end to be left with the Self alone.
Sundari: Excellent.
Ella: I just need to explore this topic from a different angle to know if I’ve got it properly, because with my understanding there’s no question who can come from the Self, because all of them are objects known to me, first, and second, the Self is beyond ignorance and knowledge, or, to say it properly, in another order of reality.
Sundari: Good for you, well spotted! This is why we say that Vedanta is a ‘set-up’. In the end, everything has to be negated as not-self, an object known to you, even the teachings once your identity as the Self is firm. Why would you need them if you are them?
Ella: If I’m standing as the Self with indirect knowledge, questions still arise, but to transform indirect knowledge as direct knowledge all the questions have to be answered, not any doubt left, the knowledge is firm. Self-actualization can occur, with the grace of Isvara.
Sundari: Yes, permanent freedom from limitation happens through dedicated self-inquiry (meaning all three stages of self-inquiry are completed) with the grace of Isvara. This is clearly explained in the satsang I sent you, The Steps to Self-Inquiry.
To be fully Self-actualized means:
(1) That you have fully discriminated the Self (Consciousness/Awareness) from the objects appearing in you (all objects, meaning all gross objects as well as one’s conditioning, thoughts, and feelings—all experience), and do so spontaneously, 24/7.
(2) Self-knowledge has (a) rendered the binding desiresnon-binding and (b) negated your sense of doership, completely. In other words, the ego program is understood and fully negated. The individual still exists with its inborn nature and operates in the world, but its program is like a burnt rope – it no longer has the power to bind. It is as good as non-existent and rests in the fullness of the Self. The world neither attracts nor repels it. There is nothing left to identify with other than your Self.
Ella: So, logically, all the questions are mithya, not-Self. It means each time I’m asking myself where the questions are coming from, they can only come from jiva under the spell of ignorance. Am I right?
Sundari: Yes, you are quite right, and you are using the logic of Vedanta correctly, to take the position of the Self. Vedanta is a means of knowledge which is a means to an end, the removal of ignorance and the end of suffering. But of course, even though Vedanta contains the only fail-proof methodology for the removal of ignorance, it is still in mithya. As mentioned above, it is an object known to you, the Self. However, we must use words to teach even though all words are just pointers to the truth, they are not the truth itself. That is why we say that Vedanta is a throw away. Once it has achieved its purpose, you no longer need it.
Vedanta like any teaching is intellectual because it requires intellectual understanding. But the difference with Vedanta and most other teachings is that it is not a theory, an academic or philosophical thought system. You cannot ‘study’ Vedanta because it is who you are. There is no distance between the subject matter of Vedanta and you, the Self. You must be qualified as an inquirer and taught by a qualified teacher, but Self-inquiry is applied knowledge, not experience. So what matters is not being able to parrot Vedanta but the assimilation of the teachings.
Vedanta requires a certain kind of intellect – one that is refined and purified so that it is capable of assimilating the meaning of the teachings, which are extremely subtle and therefore, very counter-intuitive. If the teaching remains in the intellect and does not translate into the way you live your life, what is the point? While we need an intellect, it is not the intellect that removes ignorance. It is just an object known to you. You cannot ‘think your way to enlightenment’.
You need all the qualifications for self-inquiry, and especially, faith in the scripture to surrender to a qualified teacher and the teachings. Self-inquiry requires training the intellect to think differently because it is conditioned by viparaya and adhyaropa – the erroneous cognition of reality as a duality and the super-imposition of this erroneous superimposition onto non-duality, onto the Self.
As Vedanta teachers we focus extensively on the correct use of words. Vedanta uses the implied meaning of very specific words to teach because in order to teach the truth that is not based on subjective experience, words have to be as accurate as possible.
Vedanta gives direct knowledge of the true and eternal nature of reality through words, using irrefutable logic. In spiritual circles this will be generally criticized with the argument that the eternal Self, enlightenment, the absolute, Brahman, the Tao, or whatever you want to call Awareness, is beyond words and indescribable. Therefore, the conclusion is that it is impossible to get direct knowledge and to know your “real” Self through words.
Vedanta scripture agrees on the fact that Awareness is not describable by words, because the one trying to describe Awareness is the object: the effect, mithya, and Awareness is the subject, the cause, satya. The effect and the cause exist in different orders or reality: that of the real and the apparently real, as you correctly point out. But because Vedanta is a valid, complete, and independent means of knowledge it is possible to get direct knowledge through the implied meaning of words, when they are used and unfolded correctly through a specific methodology, by a qualified teacher to a qualified student.
Ella: Another subject, I was looking for the 24 tattvas, can you just tell me where I can find them, or if not, tell me what they are.
Sundari: The tattvas are incorporated into James’ main chart, available as a download in publications. I have attached the chart for you.
Ella: Thank you again for all the time you’re taking to answer because it is really really precious!
You are welcome.
Love
Sundari
