Marie: I was the one who asked the following question during the Zoom Q and A: “Is it possible to put your attention on your non-local nature”.
It still puzzles me for some reason. I notice I am not seeing this clearly.
Sundari: I am glad you asked the question again as it is a good one, and it was not fully addressed on Sunday. Knowing the answer to it is non-dual vision and tantamount to moksa. You are not seeing this clearly because you are not clear about who the seer is, the one ‘putting your attention on your non-local nature’. But I understand your confusion because it is reasonable to ask how the non-local Self can be localized by attention.
Marie: Maybe the fallacy is already in the question. Because in a certain way it is a “halfway” question, making a difference between local and non-local.
Sundari: The fallacy is always already in any question you may have about the teachings because all questions and doubts regarding non-duality come down to one basic premise. Who is asking the question? Jiva or Self? For moksa to take place, you need to understand both perspectives, dual and nondual, and to be seated in nonduality.
Marie: But often it is said: “Bring your attention back to the Self” Is that a metaphor/reference or can that really be done?
Sundari: Because Vedanta is a progressive teaching, it meets the inquirer where he/she is. In the initial stages of self-inquiry, Vedanta provisionally accepts duality (cause and effect) and teaches from that perspective, because the inquirer still has a lot of ignorance (duality) obscuring the truth of the Self (non-duality). Baby steps are required to make progress, but so is a real commitment to subjecting the mind to the teachings. This requires not only that the student is qualified, but that he or she be properly taught. So in the early stages, the inquirer is encouraged to ‘bring your attention back to the Self, to take a stand in Awareness as Awareness and think the opposite thought” with every thought.
You are right in pointing out the anomaly in the statements mentioned above. How can you bring the attention back to the Self if you are the Self? How can you take a stand in the Self when you are the Self? Who is standing and where if the Self is nonlocal? What those statements mean for the inquirer is to see how the gunas are conditioning and directing the mind toward the world (objects/duality) and turn it inwards, towards the Self (non-duality). It is another way of applying mind management, which is guna management, basically. It is not easy to do because the mind is like a wild horse that must be trained to think differently.
Marie: It seems like your attention is always looking for an object to rest on, your True nature cannot be found as an object in your experience.
Sundari: Correct, your true nature, the Self, the one who makes attention possible, is not an object of experience. And yes, the mind (consciousness) is always resting on some object (including your own mind), this is everyone’s unexamined experience. The point is, who is paying attention, and what is it paying attention to? Who does the ‘your’ refer to in your statement above?
Who is it that sees the thought, any thought, even the thought “Is it possible to put your attention on your non-local nature”? Or the thought ‘take a stand in Awareness as Awareness’? Is it the mind observing itself, or is it the Self observing the mind? There is a difference, though ultimately, of course, everything comes down to the Self, Consciousness observing itself. Thoughts are subtle objects and therefore, not-self. But they arise from the Self, so they are the same, but different.
The non-experiencing witness (or seer) is the non-dual Self, but it functions in two ways, as the opaque witness or jiva (saguna brahman – with qualities) and the transparent witness (without qualities – nirguna brahman). If you observe a thought as the Self, there is no space between you and it because it arises and dissolves in you. Self-knowledge automatically makes it clear that any thought is you, but you are not it. Yet you respond appropriately to whatever situation is at hand for the jiva without being bound by desire or fear. That is moksa, freedom for and from the jiva.
But if you observe the thought as the ego and you are aware that you are doing so, then there is a space between you and it. That is called being objective about the content of your mind, but it is not nondual vision because there is still a doer involved. However, it is better than being fully identified with thoughts/emotions because it is possible to take appropriate action and avoid a great deal of suffering for the jiva. Secular karma yoga works very well here. But when ignorance is operating, even the objective jiva thinks that the seer is different from the seen: the subject and object are different, so ultimately, suffering continues.
The teachings state that Isvara is known also known as saguna brahman because it operates Maya (the gunas) but is never deluded by them, i.e., it is pure sattva. When tamas and rajas arise in saguna brahman, then pure Awareness apparently becomes a jiva and is deluded by Maya (the gunas). Thus, qualities are projected onto objects (unconditioned superimposition of duality onto nonduality) by the jiva under the spell of Maya.
Meaning the jiva gets its knowledge only from the sense organs, so takes objects to be real and separate from it. It is unaware of Consciousness, the only constant factor, which is always present observing objects appear and disappear. The Self is never constrained or limited by the senses or sense organs; it is that which illuminates and makes them capable of perception.
Here is the teaching on how the perception of anything happens:
It is obvious to anyone that we require consciousness to know anything. This applies to all jivas, not only human ones. But jiva’s also need a functioning mind and sensory instruments. (If you are mentally ill or blind, neither the mind nor sense organs can process information correctly). When you look at an object, the Subtle body (mind) sends out a thought. Consciousness shines on the Subtle body illuminating the senses, which in turn, illuminate the object. But the Subtle body plus the thought (or ray of consciousness) is inert. Consciousness is delivered to objects through the mechanical process of reflected consciousness shining on or bounding off a conscious or sentient being, or jiva (mind). Thus, experience takes place.
If you cannot see a material object because the mind or vision is impaired, no thought can reach it. So, you have no experience of it. Like gross objects, subtle objects like thoughts and feelings are also known in the mind by Consciousness shining on and in the mind. Therefore, all experience of objects is nothing more than a thought which takes place only in the mind, nowhere else.
If you are identified with the body-mind then you believe that all that can be experienced are objects, that objects are separate from you, even though you are only ever experiencing Awareness. As you know, the whole point of the teachings is to make clear the fact that Awareness can never be an object of perception and that for the Self, there are no objects. All objects, subtle (thoughts/feelings) and gross (material), merely have an apparent existence and are not real (mithya), meaning, that which is not always present and always changing. You, the Self (satya) are the one non-negatable factor that is always present and unchanging. Thus, as stated, moksa boils down to discriminating satya from mithya automatically, 24/7. I.e., permanent, automatic non-dual vision.
Marie: And your attention is an object in your experience. So, attention is reflected awareness. Illuminated by your non-local True nature.
Is it like asking the moon to look at the Sun?
Sundari: Yes, your conclusion is correct, see above. Attention is like the ray of the sun and the sun: the same in essence, but different. Just like your reflected face in the mirror is you but not you.
Marie: It literally gives me some sort of stomach-ache, because I know I am not seeing it right, but I can’t yet see where it goes wrong. (I assume that frustrating feeling is Rajas?)
Maybe you can help me if you would like to, many thanks in advance
Sundari: It is frustrating for the mind to be released from the hypnosis of duality because it is so counter-intuitive and subtle. So yes, the feeling of frustration is rajas, but it is a natural response of the mind to Self-knowledge working on it, scouring away any remaining ignorance or doubts. It takes time, so just keep applying the teachings and all your doubts will eventually be removed by them.
The important takeaway is to understand that the Self, being nondual, makes seeing (paying attention) possible but the Self is not a ’seer’ in the sense we understand that word. It can never be localized. It would be more appropriate to say that the Self, seeing only itself, is that which knows the seer with reference to the seen only when Maya is operating. The Self-aware Self appears as a seer. But it never actually is a seer, unless seeing refers to its own Self.
Furthermore, when moksa has obtained, i.e., you have permanent and automatic nondual vision, as the jiva, you still go about life normally, relating to people and ‘things’ as though they are separate and distinct from you. But you are never again deluded by Maya into believing this is actually true. You enjoy yourself (you are the joy as the Self) and act like a person for the sake of other people who believe they are people, and that the world is real. You know that life here is just a dream appearing in you, and there is only you. It’s a beautiful dream, full of permanent satisfaction and devoid of fear loss, and binding desires.
When nondual vision is permanent, if a situation should occur that triggers a reaction or response, positive or negative, though it may appear that the jivanmukta (Self-actualized jiva) gets emotional and gets sucked into the drama, this is never the case. Self-knowledge being automatic immediately dissolves all issues. Sattva always reigns in the mind of a jivanmukta even if rajas and tamas appear in it. The Self does not condition to the gunas and is free of the mind.
Free people never have problems because the jiva is no longer the problem. Therefore, it is hard to tell from the outside if a person is free or not; there is no ‘standard’ way to behave other than the fact that Self-actualized people never break dharma, personal or universal. A free person is free to follow their Isvara-given nature without being bound by it or to it because all doership is negated and all vasanas are non-binding.
I hope this answers your questions. Much love
