Susan: I have a new image I work with which is like a sand worm from the movie Dune that comes out of me reaching out to grasp objects. When I think of it as coming at me I can fully grok what went on with Frank. He was reaching toward me as an object to be grabbed and I realize that others have been doing that all along. It was my needy inner child that made me susceptible. I also had been sending out my grabber to grasp objects. I am no longer venerable to being grabbed and objects are clearly known to me and not so interesting. Or at least I can decide “brick by brick”. Lucky me. And since there is no “other” the knowledge that “I AM” frees me in every moment every day.
The little me is as good as non-existent and I’m blissful to know so. The teaching on karikas is a profound way of describing the situation. It cuts right thru the confusion about Who is Doing. You both have brought the knowledge/truth into very clear focus. It blinks off occasionally on my end, but I am so very grateful to both of you.
Sundari: Yes, indeed. We all chase objects until we realize that there really is nothing to gain – and nothing to lose. Nothing wrong with having any particular desire, as long as it is in keeping with dharma and not binding. Frank was hoping to find through you what he believed he lacked in himself, which of course, he does not. There really is no ‘other’, and love is never denied because we are it.
Susan: Now for my question…
Ben and Rory’s talks really clicked with me. It became perfectly clear how (and why) to get the equipment into great condition so that the knowledge can actualize. I have been delving into the model of the 5 Koshas (or Sheaths) and I am having a bit of trouble understanding the difference between the 4th, (Vijnanamaya kosha), which is where knowledge is illuminated, I think. And the 3rd (manamaya kosha) which is mind as it relates to function of the Jiva system.
Sundari: The teaching on the five sheaths unfolds the whole ‘jiva system’ to negate it all with reference to the one unchanging factor – Consciousness, the knower of the five sheaths. See below.
Susan: This is where vrittis occur? Is that right? Is the 3rd where the Ego emanates from? From the mind?
Sundari: The fourth or intellect sheath is where thought takes place, correct. The intellect is the part of the Subtle body, the instrument which allows us to discriminate, determine and make judgements. For Vedanta, you need a qualified and functioning intellect, or the teachings will not stick.
Ego – the ‘I” thought identified with the body/mind – is part of the mind or emotional sheath, also called the Subtle body. But the third sheath cannot really be separated from the intellect because feeling is a component of thinking, as is the egoic identity.
Susan: The 5th (anandamaya kosha) seems to fit the description of “reflected consciousness” which is lighting the intellect of the 4th. This results in the bliss which is experienced in the entire system, I guess.
Sundari: The fifth sheath is reflected consciousness, correct. It provides experiential bliss – Ananta. It can also be called the bliss of deep sleep. As the reflected self is not THE SELF, this bliss ends. The bliss of Self – ANANTUM – does not come from any of the sheaths, is not dependent on what is going on in any of them, and never ends. It is the knower of all of them.
Susan: I am not clear if the 4th is where stuff is known or is it the 3rd. Since consciousness can’t see or know anything it must be the 5th Kosha, just shining. And if so, is the 4th kosha what we might call the witness? The witness “sees” the other koshas? This would explain the need to “polish the mirror” of the 4th kosha by tuning up all the other koshas in order to maximize the reflection in the 4th kosha and provide the greatest amount of light as to illumine the mind in the 3rd. Am I understanding this correctly?
Sundari: See above. The koshas do not ‘see’ or ‘witness’ anything because they are all objects known to you – the Self – the only true ‘seer’ who never actually ‘see’ anything but itself. The Self only ‘becomes’ a ‘seer’ when Maya appears and apparent objects are there to be ‘seen’. ‘Tuning’ or polishing (purification) the mirror of the mind/intellect is very important for Self-knowledge to assimilate, yes. This is done through yoga – dealing with psychological and cleaning up lifestyle, issues meditation, devotional practice, developing all the qualifications and values for self-inquiry – which entails karma yoga and guna yoga (jnana yoga).
Susan: So when we use the term mind is it the 3rd kosha with intellect being the 4th? I know this is a model, but it helps me to have a visual and orient me to know where a problem or blockage might be occurring. If it is a physical problem that is where to fix it, if it is an energy problem that is where to fix it, if it is a mind problem that is where to fix it…etc.
Sundari: The kosha teaching is a model, and though it does help to locate and negate thought/emotional problems, all ignorance is due only to one thing: ignorance of your true nature and super-imposing satya (nonduality) onto mithya (duality). The koshas, as with anything relating to the jiva and its experience, subtle or gross – are all mithya.
Here is the 5 five sheaths (panca kosha prakriya) negation process:
1. The Gross Body: anna-maya kosha: Are you your body? Does ‘your’ body know you? Do your sensory organs or organs of action know you? Or are you the witness of your sensory organs, meaning your body?
2. The 5 prana: prana-maya-kosha: Are you your basic energetic desires and functions? Are you hungry/thirsty…do you breathe or digest the food you eat? Or are you the non-experiencing witness of thirst/hunger/breathing/digesting etc?
3. The Mind: mana-maya-kosha: Are you your emotions and feelings? Or do you witness them?
4. The Intellect: vijnana-maya-kosha: Are you your thoughts or the witness of your thoughts?
5. Deep sleep or Bliss: Ananda-maya-kosha: Are you the bliss of deep sleep? In moments where there seems no doer/experience, have you been able to witness and know the joy/bliss to be coming from you? If not how do you know joy/bliss was there in the first place? How can you say that you did not know anything while you were asleep unless awareness was there to witness the absence of knowledge? Therefore, you cannot be the lack of knowledge or ignorance. As I said above, deep sleep is called experiential bliss because it ends, like all experiences do. The bliss you are after if you are seeking moksha is the bliss of SELF-knowledge which never ends (anantum) because it is your true nature.
Susan: My early education was in nursing and nutrition (so that’s how my mind works). Then I returned to art and I began organic gardening to have the cleanest food I could. This was followed by Vipassana meditation teachers, Bhakti, yoga, exercise and reading the great writings of the sages and many scenic detours in Hell realms. I was trying to attend to the first 3 koshas without much awareness at the time. And now Vedanta is weaving it all together. I feel blissful just writing to you about these ideas. And I feel blessed to have you for my teacher. Cookie and I are laughing a lot as we discuss this.
Sundari: Vedanta is a flawless teaching – there is nothing like it! The Gross Body is ‘within’ the Subtle Body and the Subtle Body is ‘within’ Awareness…you. The body belongs to Isvara and we have no control over it other than to look after it to the best of our ability, if we want peace of mind. With knowledge about healthy lifestyle and especially guna management, you can do a great deal to maximize health, wellbeing and therefore, peace of mind. It is very difficult to maintain a sattvic mind if your lifestyle is a mess and the body is in bad health as a result. But, no matter how well we look after the body, Isvara is the final (and only) determiner of how long the body will sustain life.
With much love
Sundari
