Thank you so much for this detailed response. It’s nice to be able to communicate with you directly like this, truly a blessing to be born in a time where that is possible. I will indeed read what you’ve sent me and very carefully consider and engage with it. I hope I’m not being disrespectful by sending this response email first but I wanted to thank you. I discovered Shiningworld merely by chance, I wasn’t looking for it but I randomly saw a YouTube video on my recommendations. This video didn’t necessarily appeal to me as it was essentially talking about the dangers of false knowledge using vedantic or spiritual sounding words to lead others astray. This wasn’t something I was worried about but for some reason I watched it anyway, and through that person’s website I found yours, Vedanta has very clearly influenced everything I’ve read and learned up to this point (at least in the sense of language). I’ve not really looked directly into traditional Vedanta or know much about it but it seems I have learned from what Vedanta points towards inadvertently.
Sundari: You have understood the essence of what Vedanta says, that your true nature is the unborn, undying and changeless nondual Self, and not the body/mind. The real nondual teaching begins here.
Clive: Much of what you say here resonates with me, there was a point where information was all I was after, but something I noticed now is that: As I sit in silence, there I am. Any thought or feeling of perception, ‘brings me away’ from my self. Not literally as this is impossible but it’s like as thoughts or feelings or anything occur then there is a potential to stretch out away and become caught up in the story again, which is sort of a fallacy since I also recognize that the mere fact that I know I have been pulled away means I never went anywhere, haha! I can’t help but laugh when moments like that happen. I sit and see that any thought is just a thought, and here I am watching it as something unknown by mind.
Sundari: If something in the nondual teaching does not ‘resonate’ with you, you do not understand nonduality, are invested in your own ideas, or there is a lack of qualifications for self-inquiry. There is never any fault in the teachings. Ignorance of your true nature, the hypnosis of duality, is hardwired and tenacious. It does not give up easily and is always waiting in the wings.
Identifying with the mind and anything that appears in it is ludicrous, when we think of it from the Self’s point of view, because anything known to you, Consciousness, clearly cannot be you. Nothing can take you away from this, unless ignorance (the hypnosis of duality) stands in the way. If not, you know that the mind and all its thoughts and feelings do not pose a problem for you, the Self, because all are objects known to you. You do not even need ‘silence’ because that is another object known to you – you exist as the witness regardless of whether the mind is in silence or beset by noise. Unless by silence you actually mean you, the nondual Self.
Clive: A month or so ago I sat and genuinely tried looking for the entity called “Clive”, and I didn’t find anything. There is no such entity. All I know is that I know. I think one thing that alludes me and is not as certain as how I feel towards thoughts, is the experience of perceptions and the ‘outside world’.
Sundari: That is very good. The entity called Clive is a mental construct created by duality, the idea that you are a doer, a body/mind, acting for results. If you cannot find such an entity, then you have objectified the doer and duality is losing its grip on the mind. Everyone does know they are the Self, they just don’t know that they know, or don’t know that it is their true identity. The first thing to ask is who do you really mean when you use the word ‘!”? It can only refer to the non-experiencing Consciousness/the Self, your true identity. The experiencing entity called ‘Clive’ and all thoughts/feelings/experiences associated with him are just thoughts appearing in you.
This is called discriminating satya, Self/you, that which is always present and unchanging, with mithya (body/mind/world), that which is not always present and always changing. If you can do this 24/7, and Self-knowledge has negated the egoic notion of doership and rendered binding vasanas (personal conditioning) non-binding, this is moksa. Freedom from and for the limited entity called Clive. I have attached a satsang that covers what this means for Clive.
Clive: Yet like you said, the subtlety of this examination can be tricky and it hasn’t fully brought a true absolute certainty, or a full integration it seems.
Sundari: I could be wrong, but I don’t think, from what you have said so far, that you have ever subscribed to self-inquiry as Vedanta defines it. The teachings are very subtle, and they cannot be worked out on your own because your own ideas, however advanced or clear, will be inclined to interpret them. The integration of the small limited personal identity with that of the Self can only take place if you understand the difference between the doer/personal identity under the spell of Maya, duality, and the nondual Self. This is by no means easy. The easy part is Self-realization, but it is where ‘the work’ of self-inquiry begins, not ends.
Clive: I know I’ll never know my self in the same way I know perception or a thought, and there is this mysterious beauty in that.
Sundari: Who is talking here? The only way you know your personal self – perception or a thought – is by the presence of Consciousness, your true Self, shining on the mind, making it capable of perception/thought. Remove Consciousness and the body/mind is 6 feet under. You are also correct in that as the nondual Self, you do not ‘know’ anything in the way the individual does because there is nothing but you, the Self, to know. The personal entity never stops experiencing, knowing, thinking/feeling, doing as long as it is ‘alive’. The real question here is, again, who are you identified with?
The Knower and the known are also called the witness and the witnessed. There are two witnesses; the “opaque” and the “transparent witness”. The opaque witness is the jiva/personal entity with qualities looking at Consciousness through its conditioning; the transparent witness is pure Consciousness with no qualities conditioning it, and it is the witness of the opaque witness.
The word ‘witness’ is applicable when there is an object to be seen, i.e. known. Then it is duality. The truth lies beyond both. Consider the sun analogy – how the sun is necessary for daily activities. It does not however, form part of the world of actions; yet they cannot take place without the sun. The sun is the witness, the knower, of the activities, the known. So it is with the Self.
Talking of the ‘witness’ should not lead to the idea that there is a witness and something else apart from that which is witnessing. The ‘witness’ really means the light that illumines the seer, the seen, and the process of seeing. Before, during and after the triads of seer, seen and seeing, the illumination exists. It alone exists, always, whether or not there are apparent objects ‘to be seen’.
It would be more appropriate to say that the Self, seeing only itself, is that which knows the seer with reference to the seen only when Maya (duality) is operating. The self-aware Self appears as a seer; but it never actually is a seer (or knower), unless seeing/knowing refers to its own Self. When ignorance is operating the jiva thinks that the seer is different from the seen, that the subject and object are different. (This is an advanced teaching, please note, and I am jumping ahead. There are many foundational teachings that must be assimilated).
When Self-realization occurs, it means that Self-knowledge has started doing its job of removing ignorance of your true nature. At this stage, inquirers take a stand in Awareness as Awareness, even though that knowledge is still indirect – i.e., it is not yet fully assimilated what it means to live 100% of the time AS the Self.
Taking a stand in Awareness as Awareness sometimes turns out to be more than a little tricky for the mind because it is so subtle. The split mind (ego) watching itself has a slippery tendency to claim to be Awareness. But is it ‘unfiltered’ Awareness or is it an ego-delusion? How to know, and how to deal with that? Taking a stand is done with the mind and can lead to a kind of self-hypnosis that makes the Jiva (personal identity or doer) think it is the Self without the full understanding of what it means to be the Self. Of course, based on logic alone, (is there an essential difference between one ray of the sun and the sun itself?) the jiva can claim its identity as the Self—but only when its knowledge of satya and mithya is firm, meaning, direct.
The practice “I am Awareness” does not give you the experience of Awareness or make you Awareness because you are Awareness. It negates the idea “I am the conceptual jiva – i.e., egoic doer.” When the conceptual jiva identity is negated, the inquirer should be mindful of the Awareness that remains because negating the jiva idea often produces a void. Nature abhors a vacuum. Many inquirers get stuck here and depression can set in if they cannot take the next step, which is understanding that the emptiness of the void is an object known by you, the fullness of the Self, the ever-present witness. Or, at that time, many inquirers ‘start’ to experience as Awareness and make a big fuss about it even though you have only ever been experiencing as Awareness all along!
So, the discrimination between egoic jiva’s experience of Awareness and the Self’s experience of Awareness is essential. The Self’s experience of itself is qualitatively different from the jiva’s experience of the Self as an object or as objects. It is one thing to say “I am the Self as the Self and another to say it as the jiva (ego). This realization may well be a painful moment for inquirers who are very convinced that they are enlightened without knowing that they are only enlightened as a jiva, as an ego, not as the Self.
Clive: Yet there still seems clearly to be identification or attachment in some subtle ways due to the fact that I am writing this email. I suppose this is also why I happen to be seeking out specific help from someone, since I know I can’t find any more help in concepts, or in experience (in the sense that an experience won’t give me anything that I truly want) and all I’m left with is the silent sitting and seeing directly the truth. The subtlety is tricky to traverse alone and sometimes I lose the sense of what I’m even trying to find out.
Sundari: Attachment to freedom from limitation and the establishment of your true identity as the Self is the only one you cannot do without if you are after moksa. You are not seeking help from ‘someone’. I am the Self appearing as a teacher of Vedanta, a proxy for this independent and valid means of knowledge capable of removing your ignorance. It is not ‘my’ teaching, nor anybody else’s. It is the science of Consciousness, timeless and perfect. It works in every situation, time and place – assuming the inquirer is qualified, understands the value of the teachings, is not invested in their own ideas, and surrendered to the teacher as a vehicle for transference of the nondual teachings. You cannot do it alone, as I said a few times now.
Clive: Anyway I really appreciate your email, I feel a sense of love for you and what you’ve offered to me, I’ll get to engaging with what you’ve sent and continue on the way, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.
Sundari: The love you feel is the Love that is our common nondual nature. Take time to follow the steps I have given you, assuming you do want to be properly taught nonduality. We have outlined what is required of the inquirer if they want our help with self-inquiry. You need to follow the instructions we have given on our website, the minimum being reading James’ Swartz’ books, How to Attain Enlightenment, and the Essence of Enlightenment, among many others. Vedanta is a progressive teaching and has a very specific methodology, as I said to you before. We have thousands of videos and satsangs available to help you.
You are very welcome to write to me if you get stuck
Namaste
Sundari
