Dear Sundari,
Thank you, it’s so much clarification so aptly. I have replied with quotes from your previous satsang in italics.
A few times you say, “as you know”, honestly I did not, not fully yet. I was aware, as the Self, these things are true but have not assimilated them yet.
Sundari: I hear you. You do know, it just has to assimilate fully, and this takes as long as it takes.
Frank: You said: “Karma does not burn up for the Self as there is no karma for it. For the Self nothing ever happened. It is not a doer. Karma is not real, as you know.”
As you said this, a cartoon popped in my mind from the Higgs Boson discovery. The reason they took decades to “find” the tiny particle was they could only infer it, not see it. It turns out it was actually a “field” (pic 1, the field shown as a room full of people) and it only apparently becomes a particle when actions happen around it.
Albert Einstein walks in, making action – the doer / ego – for the doer, as I see it now and so gathers mass, creating Karma. This is in contrast to a “rumour” (loosely represented as Knowledge/the Self outside the field) where the action is doerless and it’s for the field (not for the doer). Karma happens but not for the Self.
Sundari: I followed the discovery of the HB particle and found it quite fascinating – and a good analogy for the subtlety of the nondual teachings, in a way. Anecdotally, the Higgs Boson was (apparently) first referred to in frustration as that ‘goddamn particle’ because though physicists couldn’t find it they hypothesized it had to exist. This name morphed into the “God Particle’ because of the particle’s spiritual implications—much to the chagrin of scientists who prefer the official name, and especially to the man who first theorized its existence (Peter Higgs), who must be decidedly unamused as he’s a proclaimed atheist!
Frank: Your quote” Karma yoga is an attitude of consecration, my combat tool for desires and fears that arise in ‘me’ under the spell of ignorance. They are not ‘in’ me but a product of ignorance of my true nature – Maya.
This is also new for me because the doer I see now is also part of Iswara, God.
Sundari: It’s true that as this is a nondual reality everything in existence ‘comes’ from, or exists thanks to the presence of, Isvara/God/Consciousness. But it is more accurate to say that the doer/doership is a product of mithya, which is the effects of ignorance. Isvara is the Self, and the Self is a partless whole and thus cannot be a doer, so neither is Isvara. To be a doer, Isvara would have to be ‘in’ the creation, which it never is. Isvara is the cause and the effects of the creation but is always free of the creation and never enters it. I explained this in more detail in my previous satsang with you – Isvara Knowns Only the Self.
Frank: I as the Self didn’t know this because of Maya, at least my mind could not perceive it yet – a fallacy of all dualistic cults and religions which perpetuate this idea. The doer is therefore Mithya, created by the Self + Maya.
Sundari: The identification with doership is the real problem, not the doer per se. The jiva cannot not do. The Self is never actually conditioned by Maya, and doesn’t ‘know’ anything because there is only itself to know . Even though the jiva/doer is the Self apparently under the spell of ignorance – i.e., Maya. Apparently is the operative word. Knowing is a function of the omniscience of Isvara, and Isvara ‘bestows’ knowing/consciousness onto the jiva, though both Isvara and jiva owe their consciousness to the Self. Assimilating this teaching is very subtle, and it is called the non-origination teaching – which basically asks, and answers the logical question at this point of the teachings:
How can Sat, Consciousness, be the basis of the material creation if it is non-dual Consciousness? The material creation is not material. It has no actual substance; it is a mirage. The deeper you delve into it, the further it recedes. Just like a movie, the creation is a projection caused by Maya, which is not the same OR not different from Sat, Existence/Awareness. Very important distinction, not the same and not different, essential to nondual vision, i.e., discriminating Satya from mithya.
(Please see satsang attached on the Reflection teaching for further clarification)
Frank: Your quote: There is no greatness in this life – it’s an illusion. It feels very good to achieve our goals as a jiva, and success is possible in mithya, which is great. Life would be pretty grim if that were not so, nobody would get out of bed in the morning. …..But everything here is transitory.”
As a Jiva yes it feels good, as the Self more and more it makes no difference. Even when it does feel good it is not liberating much anymore; good feelings carry a weight, even an addictive quality. The “dealer” Maya binds (impartially) the Jiva into a next Vasana fix, even for “love”.
Sundari: Well put. As the quote from the scriptures goes – the gold and the crow shit are one and the same to one who knows the Self, because nothing in mithya is real, only the Self. Any seeking for objects boils down to the need for love – seeking the Self. I call it the ‘hungry ghost’ syndrome. The need for love is natural for humans but the need only exists when you do not know your true nature is the source of love.
Frank: Your quote: “And to be full of love you have to feel right about the way you are living. When you are satisfied that you are taking care of yourself properly the mind relaxes and the love that you are comes out…and attracts people”.
Oh goodness yes, countless times I have perceived a potential action as not being the best idea; the way I could be living Dharmically both before an adharmic action and after was known in my mind and yet “I still did it and rejected intrinsic (?) love. I start to see the Self’s nature is love and understand how many a guru ended up with followings like a millstone around their necks – for the following and the guru. Not Ramji nor you thank goodness!
Sundari: Self-knowledge is Dharma with a big ‘D’. It allows us to be fearless because we are no longer chasing objects nor do we fear loss. We love and contact objects not for happiness but because we are happy. A true teacher – and a guru is simply someone who has had their ignorance removed by the nondual scriptures and can wield the knowledge to guide you in the removal of your personal ignorance – will model this for you.
Frank: If we provisionally accept that the creation exists. Except ‘the universe’ or Isvara is not waiting for anything because Isvara is the Self and for the Self, nothing is going on. This creation is a leela, a game or mirage taking place in you, the Self.
I have not assimilated this yet. The Self = Iswara (+ Maya). Iswara is everything, including me as the doer, the entire field from people, their and my feelings, perceptions, objects, even “my mind”. Recently during Sattvic moments I have seen Iswara as like a complete, all encompassing Everything. Nothing missing, no get outs, no exceptions. This is both wonderful and yet, as a Jiva, apparently suffocating and weirdly “boring” to Maya’s temporary ownership of the mind: nothing will happen, it’s all on train tracks now, look what you’ve done getting into Vedanta! even new is not new. This passes and I know it passes, it reverses. I just tell it that we can carry on that way but inevitably it then shrinks – it knows I know and it knows it.
Sundari: I explained this in more detail in the aforementioned satsang, and there is further clarification on it in the satsang I attached for you to read.
The ego hates the idea of surrender to Isvara. It will find it boring and try to convince the mind that the world of experience is far more interesting. Maybe it is, for the ego, because though it is always dissatisfied with experience because no experience ever delivers what the ego is seeking (not for long anyway), it even prefers suffering to facing its own demise! It’s only when we get tired of such a mind, tired of suffering, that the mind turns inwards and grows the courage (qualifications) to override the ego.
Frank: “You as an ego can’t make this happen. If Self-knowledge is at work, it will be correcting the lens setting of the mind from automatically dualistic to spontaneously nondual. Vedanta works on freeing the mind. “
Like suddenly being able to breathe underwater or walk through solid walls in a dream, now it is in the waking state figuratively. Knowledge does the work; the water is not scary, the walls are not solid and we can just breathe or pass through with the Knowledge and tools of qualifications. You often mention the word “lens” and this is so true – the experience of Knowledge is like a lens – just in reading attentively or listening and practicing it flips objects, previously upside down, the right way up to Mithya.
The truth from Vedanta is known by the Self-evident lifting of ignorance to reveal the Self. I see now the Self cannot be found, nor can the Jiva find it. This would be like looking for oneself (as a person) as if it were another separate person in an empty house, when no one else is actually there. Thank you and much love to you both,
Sundari: Amen. Well put.
Much love
Sundari
