Dear Nick
Thank you for your concern. It takes me about a week to ‘find my legs’ after traveling to Bali, but I am back in the saddle, and all is well! I hope you are too.
Nick: A question has now come up in my mind during the last Satsangs – “does Iswara know the Self?” – from the understanding that Iswara is the Self + Maya (Ignorance). So my current understanding of Iswara is, it is everything other than the Self although the Self itself has Iswara in it.
Sundari: The teaching on Isvara is the subtlest of all the nondual teachings – and like all of them, the answer to everything depends on which perspective you are taking, nondual or dualistic?
These points sum up the most important points on the Isvara – Jiva identity, with the longer teaching below it.
1. If we start at the beginning, we know that there are two orders of reality, the subject/Consciousness/nonduality, and the object, everything else/duality.
2. From the perspective of the Self, duality is only apparently real, there is no Isvara/God, no jiva, and no creation. As this is a nondual reality, we know that duality is only apparently real because it is always changing and not always present – a superimposition onto nonduality, non-diversity or the unlimited, unborn Consciousness/Self, that which is always present and not subject to change.
3. As there is only Consciousness, Isvara, like the Universal jiva, are the Self – there is no other option. But, they are eternal principles in Consciousness, like Maya, either manifest or unmanifest. When Maya appears, Isvara in the role of creator appears, and then the creation – the jiva/objects, appear.
4. Though both Isvara in the role of creator and the jiva plus the world of objects are eternal principles in, and arise from nondual Consciousness, both are impermanent with reference to non-dual Consciousness.
5. However, though the creation and Jiva are only apparently real, they do exist. Here, we must confront and understand duality, and what it means to live free of it as a jiva. To be free of the creation, we must understand what it is and where it originates from – Isvara/Causal Body/gunas. There is no moksa without first understanding and surrendering to Isvara. Which requires karma yoga, guna yoga and bhakti yoga.
6. Moksa is available to the jiva because Isvara is the Self wielding Maya, and is conscious. The jiva appears to be conscious thanks to the light of Consciousness shining on the Subtle body.
7. Even though both Isvara and the jiva share the same identity as Consciousness, to discriminate between the two, we must know what is the same and what is different about both. Assimilation of this discrimination, along with the spontaneous application of the three yoga’s in your day to day life, is called moksa.
In brief – How Isvara and Jiva are the Same and Different
1. Isvara is an impersonal principle and not a person with likes and dislikes like the jiva. Unlike the jiva, Isvara is not ‘in’ the creation, thus not affected by Maya, the three gunas, which make up duality, diversity, ‘everything else’. Though Isvara is both the cause and the effects, it is a causeless cause because it is really the nondual Self, and the creation is only apparently real. If Isvara entered the apparent creation, there would be no escape from ignorance, duality, because Isvara would be conditioned by the gunas and as limited as a jiva. It would not be able to ‘change back’. Just like we cannot get milk back once it becomes cheese.
2.Isvara creates and controls the whole creation, all objects, subtle and gross, and keeps the show going for jiva to work out its karma. Jiva creates only its subjective world, its world of thoughts and feelings—which also come from Isvara, the gunas. It cannot create a flower, the sun, the moon, and the stars.
3. Isvara is omniscient and knows all factors in the field. The jiva only knows its subjective world of thoughts and feelings – the objects it has contact with.
4. Jiva’s Consciousness depends on Isvara’s Consciousness and Isvara’s Consciousness depends on Paramatma, Pure Consciousness, so both jiva and Isvara are Pure Consciousness. An effect (Jiva) is just the cause (Isvara) appearing in a form. All forms can be negated but Isvara and Jiva as the Self, cannot.
5. Neither Isvara’s creation nor jiva’s creation hides Consciousness. It is always present prior to the creation and prior to the birth of individuals. You can’t have a macrocosmic creation without Consciousness. Something had to exist before Isvara could ‘bang’ the creation into existence. That something we call Paramatma, pure Consciousness, free of both Isvara and jiva. If this is true, which we know it is, then we can eliminate both jiva and Isvara in the role of creator, as real and take ourselves to be Consciousness—the unborn nondual Self.
6. Consciousness (me) is never affected by Isvara’s creation or by jiva’s creation. I am the knower of both.
The tricky part in understanding this teaching is Consciousness does not ‘cause’ Isvara. Isvara in association with Maya, Beautiful Intelligent Ignorance, is not an effect but it is a cause with reference to the creation. There is only one Consciousness out of which everything arises and depends upon, but Consciousness is always free of the objects. Consciousness is adjata, unborn.
Vedanta is the path of the unborn, because it reveals that although there appears to be a creation, nothing ever really happened, from Consciousness’ point of view. All objects are made up of Consciousness and dissolve back into Consciousness in that they appear in the mind and the mind appears in Consciousness. The mind/jiva (Subtle Body) like all objects is an object known to you, Consciousness. The thoughts that appear in the mind belong to the gunas: Isvara.
Nick: It then dawned on me that maybe Iswara doesn’t know the Self. Iswara (in the non-dual understanding) perhaps then does not have a separate “doer” (as Jivas / humans do, when under the spell of Maya). Iswara does not portion out Karma according to its likes and dislikes (unlike dualistic religions).
Sundari: It could be said that the Self does not know Isvara in the role of creator, because from its point of view, there is no creation. But it could also be said that Isvara knows only the Self because it is the Self – wielding Maya, but unaffected by it. As stated above, Isvara is only a doer/creator with reference to the creation, which we can negate with Self-knowledge.
Nick: Iswara just does according to a vast program too complex for any one Jiva to understand, over eons of time, including all that ever existed and will exist apparently, until Maya ceases, at which point Iswara perhaps disappears (and everything apparently in it) and all there is, is the Self.
Sundari: The ‘system’ of creation is vastly complex, and only Isvara controls it. But Isvara is not really a doer, even though it manifests the field of existence for the jiva to act out its karma. That field is run by natural laws or principles which play out on the whole spectrum of possibilities. Anything is possible in Maya, that’s how duality works. Also, neither Maya or Isvara ever ‘cease’; they just go unmanifest. They are eternal principles in Consciousness and thus cannot be destroyed – only negated by Self-knowledge.
Nick: There may be no answer to this – but it comes up practically now in Karma Yoga – more and more the precision of getting “whacked” or “living dharmically” becomes obvious on a daily basis. The doer is still free to do, the difference now is the knowledge of knowing (even before an action, in the mind) what may be caused – in speech about to be said, actions which could be taken and, especially when caught up in the whirligig of life (Mithya) and realising later “I was gone there”. Seeing when the fog clears is instant but sliding into the fog is far more subtle, like a slow shroud.
Sundari: Karma yoga is the only way to live a sane life, and if applied, will transform your life. As there is no karma for the Self, when Self-knowledge is firm, karma yoga is just knowledge. Whatever life presents to you, you respond and act spontaneously from dharma as the Self because avidya, your personal ignorance has been removed by Self-knowledge. The mind/intellect and the way it habitually worked under the spell of duality has been corrected by nonduality. You no longer need to ‘practice’ nonduality. You are it. That will come. Until then, we confront and disarm ignorance with Self-knowledge, as it appears, one thought at a time.
Nick: It is known when Iswara “brings in its revenges” (impersonally, as a grace or lesson). If it were any big Jiva it would not have the time nor prejudice (even if the ego would like that idea, like a toddler getting a reaction). Iswara “just is”, any apparent “doing” on Iswara’s part is also an illusion. So it seems there does not need to be a big Jiva (= dualistic God) for God to exist, which loves and is amazing.
Sundari: Revenge in any form belongs to duality; only jiva’s under the spell of ignorance require it. Isvara is in fact, an ocean of compassion. Even though Isvara is behind both dharma and adharma, adharma is only possible due to ignorance of Isvara, and this is possible to allow us to work out our karma. The arrow of karma always corrects imbalances in the field of existence for the good of the total. If this were not so, the whole ‘system’ would collapse. However, essentially, the field of existence operates on the law of non-injury, it has dharma built into it. If we break these laws, we pay the price.
The creation operates on laws that cannot change or be broken – even if reality seems crazy and broken, as it does now. Isvara simply facilitates the karma to go to the correct account. As the individual jiva, we can never know what is going on in the big picture; only Isvara knows. This is why we can never judge anything. But we can trust that Isvara is ‘overseeing’ the field of action, where things automatically calibrate according to cause and effect.
Nick: As the Self and as the mind / Jiva standing in Consciousness in Maya – I can see and feel Iswara everywhere – cannot hide in any way any longer (as a Jiva) and realise I never did anyhow – this was an illusion.
Sundari: When you know you are the Self, and the jiva identity is as good as non-existent, why would you hide from yourself? Even if there is a lingering jiva identity, which is usually the case for most after Self-realization, there is nowhere to hide from Isvara/Consciousness because there is nowhere it is not. You cannot run, hide from or gain God. Isvara is your existence.
You are not the Self AND the mind. You are the Self, and the mind, with all its programmed circuits, is an object known to you. Standing in Consciousness cannot be done ‘in Maya’, that is a contradiction in terms. If you are standing in Maya you are not standing in Consciousness – it’s one or the other. Maya is the hypnosis of duality, and though you can take a stand in Consciousness before all your personal ignorance has been removed by Self-knowledge, you must be able to discriminate between nonduality and duality to do so, even just for short periods of time.
As I have pointed out previously, taking a stand in Consciousness is done with the intellect and requires a qualified mind. However, it is more than a little tricky because it is so subtle. The split mind watching itself has a slippery tendency to claim to be Consciousness. But is it reflected consciousness or pure Consciousness? It is easy to confuse the two. How to know, and how to deal with that?
Taking a stand is done with the mind and can lead to a kind of self-hypnosis that makes the Jiva think it is the Self without the full understanding of what it means to be the Self. Of course, based on logic alone, (is there an essential difference between one ray of the sun and the sun itself?) the jiva can claim its identity as the Self—but only when its knowledge of satya and mithya is firm, meaning, direct.
The practice “I am Consciousness” does not give you the experience of Consciousness or make you Consciousness because you are Consciousness. It negates the idea “I am the jiva.” So, the discrimination between jiva’s experience of Consciousness and the Self’s experience of Consciousness is essential. The Self’s experience of itself is qualitatively different from the jiva’s experience of the Self as an object or as objects. It is one thing to say “I am the Self as the Self and another to say it as the jiva (ego). This realization may well be a painful moment for inquirers who are very convinced that they are enlightened without knowing that they are only enlightened as a jiva, as an ego, not as the Self.
Nick : The Jiva could, like Cypher in the Matrix, jack out back into a restaurant eating a steak but would still know (unless of course “granted” amnesia) but will inevitably know again when all parts of the PFT return to their origins.
Sundari: Yes, see above. The ego is a sneaky and tenacious program, and it does not get re-educated willingly or easily.
Nick: Karma Yoga means to me now there is no Karma for the Self (anyhow) but the Jiva, the ego kind of “goes off the radar” for Iswara through Karma Yoga – apparently disappears(?), no longer causing any Karma, good or bad.
Sundari: A bit convoluted. Yes, there is no karma for you as the Self. But you still transact with the world as a person, who is known to be apparently real, though does exist. There is no such thing as ‘off the radar’ with reference to Isvara; this is dualistic thinking. See above. When you know that you and Isvara share the same identity as the Self (though not capabilities as a jiva), the ego is permanently disarmed and you have no trouble with life anymore.
Karma yoga is simply surrender to Isvara, to the field of life, as it appears to you in each moment, trusting that the field of existence knows what you need, and taking appropriate dharmic action or inaction. It makes life so much easier for the jiva. This happens effortlessly when Self-knowledge is firm, but requires mental discipline and vigilance until then.
Nick: It still does its things but is not driven predominantly by Rajas or Tamas, actions are offered back to Iswara not for the Jiva – from where they originally came in the causal body, happen in the mind (subtle body) and may after discrimination appear as action, as a part of Iswara. It’s like it’s not causing friction in the system anymore, by being part of the system consciously and happily freedom is left as a remainder.
Sundari: Good – except that freedom is not ‘left as a remainder’. It’s the other way around. Moksa is freedom from and for the jiva. If moksa is firm, the jiva identity remains, but is known not to be who you are. If this isn’t the case, there is no permanent freedom.
Nick: Which somewhat explains why so many spiritual people rebel against the “system” in all kinds of ways until they, as the Self, perceive Iswara and are massively humbled as the Jiva me, repeatedly! I really appreciate being able to address this and welcome any clarity at any time,
Sundari: Without Isvara we are all rebelling against ourselves, though we externalise it as ‘the system’. The system runs the way it runs, and my only problem with it is ignorance of my true nature, and the true nature of life. Life is impersonal and does not care, one way or the other, because Isvara ‘sees’ only the Self, and the Self is always free.
You are always welcome, dear friend
Much love to you too
Sundari
