Dear Sundari, thank you so much – would it be fair to say then “the mind does not know” ?
Sundari: A purified mind in which Self-knowledge has obtained is of course capable of knowing that its true identity is Awareness, that by which all is known, and that it (the mind) only knows anything due to the presence of Awareness. As satya-mithya discrimination is firm, the mind enjoys the reflection of Awareness in the pure mind, but there is no more confusing reflected awareness with pure Awareness.
See more below.
Frank: This seems to be true when considered from the Self’s point of view – although the Self itself does not think and has no view. The mind then knows only because it has the light of the Self to illuminate it as an object which then, in its function apparently knows things, no different to a red crystal which is in fact clear. The mind having nothing to say is the red crystal saying “I am not red at the moment but sometimes I am”.
Sundari: Think of it like this metaphor. You, Consciousness, are the unfathomable, ever-present, unmodifiable, profoundly and eternally satisfied Silence. Not silence as opposed to sound, just pure Silence. The mind and the thoughts (experiences) that appear in the Silence, like electrical sparks appearing and disappearing, appear in you, but do not touch you or move you. You are the source of the show of lights, all movement, all sound, all objects, but as the Silence (Self), experience only the Illuminated Illuminator – yourSelf.
Frank: There is such a precise logic to the knowledge, I really love the logic almost like cracking a continually changing code. I, as the Self, am aware only and the mind in me is aware because of the Self (here I am still a little foggy…)- the “Self” is not causing;
Sundari: Yes, indeed. The logic of Vedanta is far superior to any other knowledge. I call it OI – Original Intelligence. Assuming qualifications and the assimilation of Self-knowledge, you can feed any mithya problem into OI and Isvara will provide the mind with a pristine understanding of absolutely anything. There is nothing in mithya that cannot be explained and negated by satya.
All the same, understanding the difference between reflected awareness (mind) and pure Awareness (Self) is the trickiest part of self-inquiry. Who is the knower and what does it know? As there can only be one true knower or witness, that has to be the Consciousness. But as you point out, the Self does not know anything because there is only itself to know/see/experience.
Isvara seems to be a knower or witness, but that too is misleading because Isvara is not a person and does not know discrete things. It is a generic ‘knower’ in that it has total knowledge of the field because it wields Maya, the gunas. But it is not actually doing any wielding, either. Firstly because the creation is mithya and not real, and secondly, because inasmuch as there is an apparent intelligent creation, it functions according to its own inbuilt laws. Isvara does not and cannot mess with those laws or the whole system would ‘fall apart’.
Though the creation exists only thanks to Isvara, Isvara never enters the creation. As you know, the word ‘witness’ is applicable when there is an object to be seen (the ‘spark’ in my metaphor above), i.e. known, which is duality. Consider the sun analogy – the sun is necessary for daily activities but it does not form part of the world of actions. Yet they cannot take place without the sun. The sun is the witness, the knower of the activities, and the known. So it is with the Self and with Isvara.
However – and there is always a however with nonduality – talking of the ‘witness’ can lead to the seductive idea that there is a witness and something else apart from that which is witnessing. The ‘witness’ really means the light that illuminates the seer, the seen, and the process of seeing. But remember – before, during and after the triads of seer, seen and seeing, the Illumination/Illuminator exists. It alone exists, always, whether or not there are apparent objects ‘to be seen’ (experienced). This is very hard if not impossible to understand unless you can step out of the closed system zero sum of duality with Self-knowledge.
As we have previously discussed, taking a stand in Awareness as Awareness sometimes turns out to be more than a little tricky because it is so subtle. The split mind (ego) watching itself has a slippery tendency to claim to be Awareness. But is it ‘unfiltered’ pure Awareness, or is it an ego-delusion? How to know, and how to deal with that? Taking a stand is done with the mind and can lead to a kind of self-hypnosis that makes the Jiva think it is the Self without the full understanding of what it means to be the Self. Of course, based on logic alone, (is there an essential difference between one ray of the sun and the sun itself?) the jiva can claim its identity as the Self—but only when its knowledge of satya and mithya is firm, meaning, direct.
And perhaps disappointingly for many, the practice “I am Awareness” does not give you the experience of Awareness or make you Awareness because you are Awareness. It removes ignorance by negating the idea “I am the conceptual jiva” i.e., ego identity. When the conceptual jiva ego identity is negated, if the mind is sufficiently qualified, the jiva is known to be the Self – Jivatman. Mithya ‘becomes’ satya at this stage, and all is well from then on, even though life ‘in the world’ continues ‘as before’.
But, what also often happens is that negating the jiva egoic identity often produces a void. Nature abhors a vacuum. Many inquirers get stuck here and depression can set in if they cannot take the next step, which is understanding that the emptiness of the void is an object known by you, the fullness of the Self, the ever-present witness. Or, at that time, many inquirers ‘start’ to experience as Awareness and make a big fuss about it even though you have only ever been experiencing as Awareness all along!
I often hear inquirers say ‘I experienced bliss today” like it’s such a big deal – a big wow moment, instead of the return to normal. The bliss of Self-knowledge should be the default position of the mind regardless of what circumstances it is dealing with in its karma stream. Of course there is a difference between experiential (ananta) and non-experiential (anantum) bliss. They both owe their existence to Awareness, but only the latter, anantum, is permanent as the bliss of knowledge once Self-knowledge obtains. That bliss is not a feeling, though by its presence all feelings are known, such as ananta.
So, the discrimination between egoic jiva’s experience of Awareness and the Self’s experience of Awareness is essential. The Self’s experience of itself is qualitatively different from the jiva’s experience of the Self as an object or as objects. As we point out so often, it is one thing to say “I am the Self as the Self and another to say it as the jiva (ego). This realization may well be a painful moment for inquirers who are very convinced that they are enlightened without knowing that they are only enlightened as a jiva, as an ego, not as the Self.
Frank: Maya causes when the Self is there and apparently forgets it is the Self.
Sundari: Check out your language here. The Self is always present, regardless of whether Maya is manifest or not. When Maya appears, the conceptual jiva entity (subtle body or mind) a conscious being appears. So, the sentence should read: ‘when Maya manifests and Isvara ‘causes’ the creation to manifest (meaning the jiva), the Self (apparently) under the spell of ignorance seems to ‘forget’ itself.
This is such a difficult concept to teach and assimilate. How can the Self which never enters the creation, is never covered by Maya and modifies to nothing, ever be conditioned by ignorance? It is impossible. The apparent reality is not real, a mirage caused by the hypnosis of duality; reality is nondual. What Vedanta wants to remove from the mind is the superimposition of duality onto nonduality, which is very tricky due to the tenacity and persuasive powers of duality.
Frank: At the Jiva level the causal body – which “I” as Jiva can mostly only infer (as the conscious mind) but sometimes have a “hunch” there and it usually percolates up later (only if inquired into, or it just rolls on and I’ll be on the desire / fear wave later).
Sundari: This week I posted two satsangs on the Causal body which should be helpful. Check out the satsang section.
Frank: However the gunas are not so invisible, when sitting back regardless of the state (Rajas is hard to tame, for Tamas I am lucky if “I” even notice, if too dense) I still know in the mind from the knowledge of countless times this has all happened before it’s just a different flavor. This is one of the many crystal clear Self Evident benefits of Vedanta.
Sundari: The gunas are the most obvious thing once you know what they are and how they function because they are totally predictable. Tracking the gunas is the name of the game of mind management. No-one is to ‘blame’ for how they play out and the ensuing karma they create, but it is on you once you know. If the teachings are not applied to the mind, constantly and with great vigilance, what use are they?
Frank: My brother has a picture of Ramana on his wall in England, and when I am there it always strikes me that he has (a) very shiny eyes (b) looks phenomenally bored. Epic boredom. It’s not just “ennui” or lack of entertainment (common on many faces in the street, looking at phones) – it’s way deeper – it’s like “it’s so over Dude”, he knows it and completely at peace, he knows acutely that it will all be as boring as before because he knows there is not even a timeline. Imagine everyone on earth like that all the time, an apparently tiny shift just in the mind and all dictators disappear, all war everything. The fan for sure would keep turning but just slow down until it stopped. If I “AI” those eyes onto all those “in power”, it’s quite funny.
Sundari: I agree! I have seen those photos and that look. Imagine sitting around in your undies for years on end being gawked at by the hopeful hoards. Can’t imagine anything worse! For sure ignorance was over for Ramana, and knowing who he was, nothing mattered much anymore. He was not in or part of the world, just a silent observer. He was the Silence. This is why he taught the importance of silence, which was misinterpreted by many to mean that all they needed was to be ‘in silence’. But that kind of silence is not opposed to ignorance, so unless some qualifications for moksa are present, being in silence cannot remove ignorance. You need qualifications, a proper means of knowledge, and to be properly taught, for moksa. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with the world or being in the world when you know what it is. You are awake in the dream, as a jiva, though as the Self, you never slept so cannot ‘wake up’. All the pyrotechnics of duality do not faze you anymore.
Frank: I am not criticising it – it’s just hardly a good teaching advertisement for Vedanta – whereas Swami Chinmayanda is totally different (yet totally the same) effervescent, unapologetic freedom. Swami Dayananda is totally different but the same, incredibly kind, phenomenally precise and logical. Swami Abhedananda is (I have no words) just incredibly wonderful. I could weep.
Sundari: Despite Ramana’s apparent existential boredom, being in his presence was life changing for some because of the shakti of the Self. Maybe that is all they got though as Ramana was not a proper teacher and never claimed to be. But he definitely knew and understood all the teachings of Vedanta. All the great being you mention were Mahatmas, but they were also human and fine with their apparent humanity. It didn’t matter to them. What choice do we all have? Isvara gives us the jiva program we are born with, and even when we know it is not who we are, it is what it is – still a flawed entity.
Frank: There is one question I have often wondered which came up in a Satsang with James but never asked – he’s talking about the symbols and mentions Shiva “what is always good all the time always” but just one time when talking about Narayana, Krisha he mentioned Shiva in a different context and just said “…yeah Shiva can be a bit scary…” but I wondered why this was?
Sundari: Well, Shiva is the Self, so it is that which is always good. But in its function as part of the Trimurti, Brahman is the creator, Krishna the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer of worlds, which can be scary I suppose. You have to have all three for the creation to manifest and unmanifest. Syntropy and entropy are always at work in the constantly changing creation. They are just symbolize different ‘aspects’ if you like, of Isvara.
Frank: As the Jiva I sometimes have the impression it’s like looking into complete nothingness when I see a Shiva symbol where nothing remains, whereas as the Self Shiva is the Self that is all and it is not scary at all, in fact it is pure security.
Sundari: The Self is the only security possible as nothing else is real. When you know that, all fear and worry, everything scary, is over for you. Shiva is not looking into nothingness because Shiva is the Self looking at itself.
Frank: I have a poster where Shiva is lying down smiling while Kali who was apparently on the rampage is now returning to her form and Shiva knows as the Self nothing can touch the Self, not even Kali. It is a beautiful metaphor of the Self; it is non different yet not of Maya. Maya could not “exist” without the Self but the Self does, without Maya. The story goes (I am not sure) if he didn’t do what he did, she would have lost it and everything been destroyed in rage. There are more stories of Shiva as “rescuer” I think – he apparently runs into the worst risks and dangers and everything calms down and dissipates.
Sundari: There are many stories about all three deities that make up the Trimurti (as well as all the hundreds of other Hindu deities) which work well as metaphors for their respective ‘functions’ within the creation. Take your pick. They all point to the same thing: there is only one Self, free of everything. Everything exists because of the Self, is dependent on it and resolves into it.
Frank: James and yourself have the freedom palpably in all your teachings running on a fuel which seems infinite. I know you must get tired but James’s consistency with the teaching, shown so clearly in his new book – I could be watching a video from ten years ago or now – the tone of the notes never wavers.
Thank you for the continuous help and teaching you provide, I do not take it for granted, ever!
Sundari: I know how much you appreciate these priceless teachings, and how dedicated an inquirer you are. You are always welcome, dear friend. It is always a real pleasure to engage with you. Yes, James does get very tired especially these days, but as a teacher he never wavers – he remains as clear as any teacher can be. Without doubt up there with the best of the best in the lineage. We are all truly blessed to have been taught by him. I count my blessings every day!
With much love
Sundari
