Anyway, today I was in bedroom and a little voice told me to get up and go to the mirror. It said strip to my waist so. I looked into the mirror at my face, and I saw all this darkness. pain and misery and anger. Then it started morphing and changing into all these different entities, some so demonic I want to recoil. The voice say stay put and watch. To just witness the corruption, arrogance, manipulation, greed, rage and phoniness. All these different entities passed through me. Some had no eyes; others’ faces were melting away from the bones. One, with eyes like laser beams that looked like they could burn your face off with a single glance said with a demonic grind, “I’d slit your throat and enjoy

watching you die.” For a moment it scared me, but somehow, I knew that this entity was only a part of me and something in me loved the idea of killing/destroying things. And I was OK with it because I was the one witnessing all these different beings so I couldn’t be any of them. I didn’t need to fight them, I just needed to watch. And at the end of it, I saw myself naked, vulnerable, beautiful even. Untouched by the good and the bad.

It feels like a positive experience. Like the jiva stuff I have been trying to avoid coming into sharp focus and being integrated. I’ve heard you describe a similar experience, so I wondered if you have any thoughts on this? No worries if you don’t have time. It’s not super urgent or anything. I think I understand but if you have anything to add I’d love to hear it.

Ramji: I’d say, it was a glorious experience. It was the same type of experience that turned my life around 180 degrees back in the day.  It didn’t solve the problem that needed to be solved but it showed me what was possible and I took up the challenge.  You’re a blessed person. Thanks to your dedication, Isvara made a dramatic statement in technicolor. It is very useful practical knowledge. You can count on it. When one of those emotions raises its ugly head, stare at it until you see how funny it is and revel in your status as the only observer.  Now, you can start the process of moving your “jiva I” to the position of the observer, if you wish.  If not, you will have to wait for another similar experience to gain the confidence necessary to convince yourself completely that the witnessing awareness is yourself as Ramana did when he had his famous epiphany.  He spent 20 years apart from society working on cementing the knowledge “I am the unborn observer” after his epiphany.  When that work was finished, Isvara built him an  an ashram so he could sit alone in public in silence to demonstrate that the ever-present unborn observer is bliss.  Many people experienced it by proximity with his body but that’s where it stayed for most.  Freedom isn’t that free if you can’t do or not do or do something else.  Thanks for sharing. I will post it as a reminder that if you constantly invoke God with your thoughts, feelings and actions, It will speak back.

Lots of love,

Ramji

When a Self-realised student assimilates Self knowledge with a very pure mind, which is to say that there is absolute certainty that there is no relationship between the perceived world and the Self (pure existence shining as consciousness) and when that self-realized person lets go of the idea that he is a doer, and only an expanse of bliss, purity and love that is deeply known to be everything remains, would you say this is actualization?

Ram:Yes.

We can go further into this and, as you once wrote in an old blog, something like “limitless love”, where the jiva gets a reward that it believed was never possible; a never-ending sense of love that loves through me “touching” everything in its vicinity

What I’m experiencing isn’t like another person loves me, which is nice enough, similar to Christians saying “Jesus loves you,” but it is love itself loving the opaque  “manifest self” and I know myself ACTUALLY to be transparent unmanifest love!!! To use Greg Goode’s wording.

Another way to see this is that there is nothing in life to hold onto because there is no relationship perspective with the world~picture. In the mithya (seeming) picture-world (l like this way of putting it so please let me off), there isn’t the slightest friction in worldly situations.

Vedanta then leaves the earnest inquirer alone as both ignorance and knowledge respectively and respectfully bows out. Completely disappearing leaving “it”— the jivas true pronoun —as pure as the driven snow! I’m quoting the very great Sri Ram. You, myself, my Guru. So before I get completely lost in the majesty of words is this self-actualisation or self-realisation or what?

Ram: It’s Self actualization, Mike.

I know you have explained the similarities and differences before but it’s just something that I would like to hear from the source of wisdom itself which is synonymous with scripture, if you could? Thank you Ram.

Ram: I could and I did. Great satsang. I’ll post it.

Something clicked for me yesterday listening to the satsangs. I was in the bathroom measuring the room trying to figure out how I wanted to rearrange it to put in a shower while listening on my ear buds. You said something to the effect of the Self is to the body what God is to the world. I knew you meant what Consciousness is to the world. I felt a subtle idea sliding into a slot in my mind. All a sudden I realized Consciousness is  not an object. It’s me! The light that is aware of everything in my field of experience. How subtle !! There is really nothing to say about it. How many years have I listened and not understood? 

My mouth always gets me in trouble engaging in ways that solidify my enmeshment with the body and the world.  How long I pointed the finger at the world!  If  others  only knew what they were doing,  there wouldn’t be any problems. But it was me that didn’t know. So subtle. So precious. Yoga doesn’t know how to teach it.  Yogis only know how to withdraw the senses, but if you are enmeshed with the world it’s a waste of time because the one who is withdrawing is in the world.  

I looked back at our emails going back to 2015.  They were all just about me trying to find ways to fix my environment. To “help” others. But I was just trying to find a way to give meaning to myself. So pointless. I am that which gives meaning to everything.

I never under stood the question “how far are you from your mind?” I was trying to see myself with my mind. I am not the object to be known, Jason is! I know I’m preaching to the choir. I’m just happy that you are here because no one else would know what the hell I’m talking about.  I can’t help but feel like Isvara has corralled Jason into a tighter and tighter chute until there is nowhere left to go but through the door. Kicking and screaming the whole way, of course.  I don’t know what to do now but I know what NOT to do. I guess that’s a start 

Love “Jason”

Ram:  What to do now is to put in the shower and keep your ear buds in.   

GS: Thank you for the clarification. I am grateful to you. I wonder how you tolerate my questions. Your support is unconditional. Kindly provide explanation for Sanskrit words for self-realization, self-actualization

Sundari: You are welcome, GS, I am happy to answer your questions. Self-realization is moksa if the akandhakara vritti, the unbroken ‘I” thought referring to you as the Self is firm (direct) and the association with the jiva identity is fully negated. The thought “I am Awareness” (akhandakara vritti) is defined as a ‘modal cognition’ or thought through which the Self (Brahman) is directly apprehended. This knowledge arises in the mind through cognition which can occur through self-inquiry, in a teaching environment, in meditation, or washing the dishes, i.e., at any time.

This modification or thought (vritti) is called the ultimate modification (antya-vritti) in that it destroys every other thought, giving rise to direct perception/knowledge of reality that you ARE the Self. This is not an event or something you can gain. Although the akandakara vritti experience comes from Self-knowledge, if the full assimilation of Self-knowledge is not firm, the experience ends, and Self-knowledge is indirect, and can be ‘lost’.

In the case of Self-realization being experiential, there is still some residual ignorance to be removed by Self-knowledge. Therefore, we say that Self-realization is usually where true self-inquiry begins, not ends and for this, the inquirer must be properly taught by a qualified teacher. The last stage of inquiry is called Self-actualization or nididhysana. When Self-actualization is complete, moksa is really moksa. Many people think they are fully Self-actualized, but in fact, this last stage of inquiry is very subtle, and truly free beings are quite rare.

Om

Sundari

James:  I like this quote but it needs a bit of commentary.  To whit:  Actually jnanis are free so they are free to seek out new vasanas, to not seek out new vasanas or to neither seek nor not seek vasanas because “they” are actually the Self.  The old vasanas continue to outpicture but they don’t affect a jnani because vasanas are only apparently real and a jnani is actually reality itself, which is always unassociated with vasanas, desires and actions.  I think the “best” class of jnanis, in so far as they are a class, like Ramana, are those who make an effort to purify rajasic and tamasic vasanas for the sake of themselves, the teaching, Isvara, the teacher, and the world.

This comment assumes that moksa is only firm Self knowledge, the fifth stage of sadhana, not tripti, perfect satisfaction, the sixth stage, which is achieved by nididyasana.  After his realization, Ramana spent twenty five years in caves doing nididyasana, before he consented to make himself available to the public, which accounts for his outsized impact on the spiritual world, not his Self realization, which is the same for everyone in so far as there is only one  already realized Self and only one way to realize it, which is accomplished by the removal of one’s ignorance, by a means of knowledge. 

            I’ve been enjoying the weekend seminars and the Q&A sessions that follow. They’re a superb way of either learning and or cementing self knowledge. I wanted to let you know that I believe that these seminars are very powerful and because of Covid we are really getting something extra here. It’s a silver lining for sure! It’s like travelling around with a real mahatma, maybe not quite as powerful but still it affords a unique opportunity that I believe we all really appreciate. This is writing itself btw. In my own sadhana the knowledge is very very clear now and this brings to mind the ouroborous and how the mind is eating itself and being eaten up with the nectar of truth.

            I almost don’t want to say it at the risk of sounding like a pretentious poseur, and in the distant past the jiva has been prone to occasional outbursts of prideful boasting. However, now I know all the qualities belong to life itself – Isvara. The jiva feels so powerful, but not in a rajasic way. It is the culmination of discrimination and knowing that maya cannot reach me – existence shining as consciousness- maya cannot affect me in anyway. Mithya is me but I’m definitely not mithya. This feeling of power is the effect of the knowledge being true to the object, me – the association-less “I”, the non experiencing witness. The invisible line is there and never the Twain shall meet.

            Since I was 29 or 30 a few years after I saw an interview with you on Conscious TV I began studying Vedanta and not long after I realised the self, however it’s taken many years for the knowledge to truly take effect and begin to actualise itself. Vedanta takes us to places we never dreamt we could reach and yet we don’t even need to physically move anywhere, especially with yourself and Sundari providing the seminars from your Spanish home. The intention on your part is very pure and that’s why it’s so powerful because it’s Isvara – God – teaching Isvara what it really is. There’s no hidden agenda and I can see the dispassionate approach you take to it. My deepest thanks Ramji & Sundari and anybody else that makes the website and the zoom seminars possible. Until next time keep well, Om & Prem.

Ramji:  Lovely testimonial, Mike!  I love the the Ouroborous metaphor.  Here’s a pic of a bas relief sculpture that Sundari just completed.  And yes, the Zoom meetings are very helpful.  Isvara in the form of one of our Vedanta donated the pro subscription so it has been working well.  In person is best, I suppose, but not really because in the end Vedanta is just knowledge.  If you can sit in your easy chair at home with a cup of tea and listen without bias it will go in and start doing its work in the fulness of time.  I’m very happy for you.  It’s all Isvara but give the mithya you, if there is one, a pat on the back for hanging in there!  I’ve attached a pic of Sundari’s Ouroborous.

Much love,

Ram

Sundari: Self-realisationis where the work of Self-inquiry begins. Self-realization is an experience, and because all experience occurs in time, no experience can become permanent, all experiences will end. Experience is therefore not real in the light of Vedanta, which is that which is always present and never changes. Only Awareness fits that definition. Meaning one can ‘lose’ one’s Self-realisation, if the knowledge “I am whole and complete, actionless, unchanging, unlimited, ordinary Awareness” is not fully assimilated, meaning you understand what that means for the jiva. It is one thing to know that your true nature is Awareness, which is called indirect knowledge. It is quite another to live free of the person as the Self 24/7, which is direct knowledge. This distinction is clear in the satsang on the steps to self-inquiry, which I am sure I sent you.

To be fully Self-actualized means: (1) One has fully discriminated the Self from the objects appearing in you. An object is anything other than you, meaning all gross objects as well as one’s conditioning, thoughts, and feelings—all experience. (2) Self-knowledge has (a) rendered all binding vasanas non-binding and (b) fully negated one’s sense of doership. I.e., your identity as the Self is the default position of the mind and you never confuse yourself with the jiva again, not even for a second. 

Richard: It was also reassuring to read that you and Ramji actively discourage seekers from becoming avid followers, as I guess in many ways it can lead to a form of Spiritual dependency.  Offering the teachings in a spirit of friendship seems a far more noble approach.  That said, is it not somewhat inevitable that any teacher/Guru with a platform and message will naturally amass followers and become an idol of worship given the propensity of humans to seek a saviour? 

Sundari: Yes, people who lack all the qualifications for self-inquiry tend to project specialness onto the guru without realizing how dualistic that attitude is. While it is important to have the right attitude of respect for the guru who is a symbol of the Self and the Eternal Sampradaya, it is also important to see that you are non-different from them as the Self.  A genuine Vedanta teacher will simply not allow guru worship because they see you as the Self too.

Richard: Lastly, could I ask a general question on how a Spiritual teacher measures their effectiveness?  With so many teachers, courses and programs in the “spiritual marketplace,” how does a student discern which path to follow?

Sundari: We don’t measure our effectiveness because we are not identified with being the teacher. If we were doing so, what kind of teachers would be? Certainly, we would not qualify as Vedanta teachers. Where would karma yoga come into it? It would be the ego teaching, not the Self. The teachings are not ours. Isvara is the only teacher, we are just mouthpieces. Our job is simply to unfold the teachings correctly according to the level of the inquirer’s understanding. It is up to the inquirer to ‘do the work’, and ultimately, up to Isvara if the teachings assimilate, It all depends on how qualified an inquirer is and also if the student is dedicated to their sadhana with the requisite faith in the teachings. If they are not, no amount of teaching helps until all the qualifications are present. A discerning inquirer is an inquirer with the requisite qualifications.

All the same, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. For those who do not know how to discriminate between satya (real, always present and unchanging/the Self) and mithya (apparently real, not always present and always changing, the world/jiva), run the risk of falling prey to a bad teacher is pretty good in the spiritual supermarket.  By bad I don’t necessarily mean one who sets out to delude, though there are those too.  I mean one who does not know the difference between satya and mithya, between ignorance and knowledge. Or worse, one who teaches ignorance as knowledge.  Even many fairly good teachers who do not have the full grasp of the teachings, or who have not cleared up their jiva stuff, mix ignorance with knowledge. If you as their disciple don’t know the difference, you will swallow ignorance as knowledge and get confused.

Vedanta requires faith in the teachings as the primary qualification because without it, you will not commit to them and self-inquiry simply will not bear fruit. You will keep comparing Vedanta to other teachings and get hopelessly tied up in knots. Vedanta does not require blind faith but faith pending the outcome of your investigation.  If you do not have faith, you will still be shopping around looking for the ‘best’ teacher or teaching, which it sounds like you are doing. I think you need to work on the foundation of the teachings, especially on the qualifications.

The only way you can be sure if you can trust a teacher is if they stick to the teachings and make sure you understand that they have nothing to do with them. That they tell you upfront there is nothing wrong with you, there is only something wrong with your thinking.  And of course, the ultimate test of whether a teaching works or not is if your life as a jiva is improving. In the case of Vedanta, it will if you are qualified, are taught properly and are applying the teachings to your life.  Are you becoming less fearful, less needy, chasing objects for happiness less? Are the intractable problems in your life becoming less important, less problematical? 

If the teachings are purely in your head and do not translate into your life, there will be no change. If there is no improvement in your mental state and your life, you are either not qualified for Vedanta, and/or not dedicated to self-inquiry. Or you do not have a good Vedanta teacher, are confused, and constantly shopping around for answers.

But if you are a dedicated and qualified inquirer totally committed to applying the teachings and have the extraordinarily good grace to have found a qualified Vedanta teacher, such as you have in Ramji and me, you can thank your lucky stars because this is by the grace of Isvara.

Richard: Could I also schedule an appointment with you or Ramji if possible. 

Sundari:  Yes, we do skype or zoom by donation.

Om

Sundari

This morning as I sat reflecting, it dawns on me that the fruits of the teaching are like chisels that chip away at the obstacles to moksha. Reflecting on the knowledge that I am Sat Chit Ananta, what emerged, like a sculpture materializing out of marble, was the eternal One Jiva and that identification with it was the obstacle to actualization. I could not only “see” the Eternal Jiva but I could also see it as the mechanism, paradoxically, that is both the cause of the obstruction and the means by which the self recognizes its self as existence, limitless conscious awareness.

It is such a blessing to have had you and the teaching come into my life.

Much love,

D…

         Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I really appreciate you writing to me personally even though you are so busy. I am honoring all of your advice for my inquiry. I had read somewhere on your website that it is important to also reveal something personal when asking questions. This, and your comment that you like stories, then led me to perhaps go a bit overboard in describing my experiences. I could have made it much shorter. So maybe you got too much the impression that these experiences still mean a lot to me.

         Actually I only wanted to write that I knew from that time that what I am cannot die, was not born and that this is valid for all beings. It was only partial knowledge, of course.  I never made much fuss about these experiences and there is still one missing, but I will be very brief about it now. And I describe it for the reason that you can see where exactly I stand and whether my conclusions regarding my practice are appropriate and correct. I have never questioned a teacher regarding my experiences because the insights that have come from them have never been questioned by me. I question you as the Self, acknowledging your authority and in an attempt to overcome my tendency to want to deal with everything in life on my own(speaking as Joe). And I gladly acknowledge that without Vedanta I have not progressed one step.

         So the last experience a few years ago happened with a so-called Advaita master (from the Papaji lineage) who asked me, Papaji-style, the question: Who are you?  Without wanting to make a story out of it now: I “saw” in a kind of introspection that I am that which is the essence of everything perceived, that this “I” is everything there is. That the so-called world is only a kind of self-creating hologram, including Joe, and “I”, if it can be put into words at all, is pure indefinable being.

         With this revelation it became clear that there is no cause and effect, although I could not explain this with my mind. Further, that relationships are something very strange, because it is always the same “I” that is in relationship with it self. Thirdly, it became clear that the whole world is free of meaning and fourthly, that it makes no sense to insist on a personal point of view, because “I” stand on all points of view. And with this experience the knowledge of my immortality became much more present (to check if there is still fear I went parachute jumping :-).This vision didn’t cause any nice feelings, but first of all heavy confusion. But then great calmness returned to the mind.

         Of course, all this did not remain without effect on the body-mind-system and the spiritual search and the attendance of Satsangs was over. The personal things lost more and more their importance and an ever increasing non-attachment set in. Since then, it has hardly mattered how things turn out.

         But fortunately (or unfortunately?), there always remained the feeling that there was still something to be done, I just didn’t know what. Three years after that event, I finally found your book translated into German and realized the value of the teaching. In truth, this book came to me shortly after that last experience, only I had not immediately recognized the value. It seems that I first had to be somewhat confused by the teachings of Nisargadatta and Ranjit Maharaj, which I read first. With the knowledge imparted by you and through Vedanta, respectively, I have come to understand them.

         Of course, what was completely missing from this experience was the understanding of mithya and ishvara, without which no real discrimination is possible.

         Now I have made so many words again. In the end, I just wanted to say that because of this experience, I have no doubt about who or what I am. But I also understand that all this is not enough and that I am now asked to discriminate diligently, to confirm again and again my identity as awareness, and to expose myself again and again to the teachings. What I am neglecting is meditations. Would you recommend that I meditate more often?

         Another question is what moksa really consists of. Sometimes I have the impression that moksa is equated with self-actualization, but then again with self-realization. Maybe I am too scientific in some aspects.

All love,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Thank you for sharing your story.  It is clear and succinct.  I had my red pencil out to mark the mistakes in your thinking but I couldn’t find any. The most important fact is your realization that doubt-free knowledge is not the end of the story. Usually people stop there.  They went through a lot of experiences to get rid of the Who am I doubt and when it’s over they are happy. But as the saying goes, “It isn’t over until it’s over,” which means that one’s work is only done when the mind dies.  The death of the mind is doesn’t mean that the mind stops working.  It means that you…existence shining as consciousness, knows that Isvara is doing all the thinking or that thinking isn’t real.  When that is doubt-free knowledge there is no longer a sense of being a person. It’s during the nididhyasana phase that this happens.  Your statement that “without the understand of mithya and Isvara no real discrimination is possible” is true, but discrimination for whom?” 

It must be Joe because existence shining as awareness wouldn’t ask that question because non-duality means that there is nothing to discriminate.      Discrimination is mithya, a thought process.  If it’s present due to the habit of discrimination you picked up when you were a doer but is not supported by you, then the personal self is gone and everything is over and whatever was real before is clearly a dream and the Joe actor is as Shakespeare says, “a poor player who struts and frets his hour on the stage and then is heard no more.”  There is only silence, peace, bliss.  So this is moksa from moksa.  Nothing ever happened. One’s whole life is just a cock and bull story, “a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing” to quote the poet again.  Arriving here is not a good thing or a bad thing.  There is no way to say what it is because it is beyond words.  That’s the meaning of silence.

One shouldn’t wait for this to happen. You will notice when it does.  If you make a goal out of it, you keep the personal self alive.  Just do what you do.  You are absolutely on the right path and you are doing everything right for the right reasons.  I could see that from our recent chat.  Yes, sometimes moksa is equated with doubt free knowledge (Self realization) and sometimes with the end of Self actualization.  But there is no moksa or no actualization because you were never born to realize or actualize.  You can only say, “I am” and stop.   

But maybe this has already happened?  You say, “This vision didn’t cause any nice feelings, but first of all heavy confusion. But then great calmness returned to the mind.”  As for meditation, meditate on these words.  Or, if the “great calmness” is still present take it as meditation and don’t worry.

Love,

James

I recalled a thought I had long before discovering Vedanta.  Assisted by peyote during a ceremony I always noticed a point at which the mind would let go of its egotistic focus and would rest in what I call “the basic quality of my own awakeness.”  This was the point at which the peyote ceased to have any effect.  You could take as much as you want and the only result would be more clarity.  

It is like the experience of fasting without food or water during the Sundance ceremony.  Somewhere around the third day my mind would finally accept defeat and cease to complain that I was too hot or too cold or so thirsty I couldn’t speak.  Low and behold, the same “awakeness” would reveal itself and all a sudden I was very happy.  Energy would return and I could have easily continued the fast, but the ceremony would end.

            Why am I telling you this?  Until this point I only applied the idea of the Self as a salve for my constantly externalized mind.  I logically overcame the tendency to be stuck on objects.  It was like telling a puppy not to shit in “that” spot indoors and the puppy eventually learns to shit outside.  The metaphor is a little backward because in Self inquiry you are taking the puppy mind inside its own self through logic rather than sending it outside to find another place to shit.  The point is that my approach to self inquiry so far has been to gain relief by recentering on my Self, but it didn’t really work because my vasanas would only rest for a hot minute before the mind started bouncing around like a slobbering puppy looking for something else to play with.

            Watching TV is another perfect example.  I always click around looking for the next exciting thing to watch.  I find myself looking through the  thousands of shows but lately nothing interests me.  What am I looking for?  I am looking for happiness in the form of temporary relief.  Pleasure and entertainment.  But the only reason I am not happy is because I am looking for happiness.  I already know nothing is more enjoyable than the “basic quality of my own awakeness.”   I used to think of awakeness or awareness as a quality of mind that I could access through the ceremonies but now I know it’s just me.  This is the end of the road.  When you subtract everything else. Here I am. 

            It’s so fucking simple nobody gets it because the mind is a puppy looking for a toy.  Action in inaction.  I can act in the world but it better not be for happiness because then my mind is externalized and I have forgotten the truth.  I can enjoy the world but don’t forget about the one without whom enjoyment is not possible.  I may suffer pain or hot or cold or thirst, but making avoidance of pain my top priority does not lead happiness either.  It is akin to the desire to avoid boredom. It leads to a weak pleasure seeking mind that thinks that action is necessary for happiness. 

             You can’t get there through external action, which is what you were trying to tell me at lunch that day when we were talking about “what to do.”  Why ?  Because your already there! When you stop whining like a little bitch puppy that life is not gonna give you what you want, or is gonna give you what you don’t want, or you might lose what you already have, then there you are.  A warrior.  Not a brawler against this action or that.  But a mature person.  Wow, what trip! What a journey!!!  Thank you.  A million times.  Thank you. 

Love 

Jason