Dear Friends,

As announced in our  previous Newsletter, we have introduced a new two pronged method to our online teaching, with the intention of facilitating the assimilation of Vedanta.  We will teach one format where Ramji and I, as well as on occasion other Shiningworld teachers, will impart the non-dual teachings in a more technical, scriptural format, as we usually do.  The other approach will be for all the Shiningworld teachers to join in to help inquirers, whether beginners or advanced, with issues pertaining to the jiva identity, i.e., duality, or mithya. As John and Lisa Baxter are both psychologists, their professional knowledge will be of great help in this regard. 

Though non-duality has no real connection to duality, the reason most inquirers get stuck at all stages of self-inquiry is usually linked to psychological issues, which impacts on or is impacted by lack of qualifications and correct values. This is in many ways, the most important part of teaching. But it is also the most difficult because egos can get in the way. It’s much easier to just teach the Self – but unfortunately, there is no way to get to that without addressing the individual first. 

It’s not that the scripture is not designed to do this – obviously, it is. But we want to target lifestyle/psychological issues, specifically – with reference to the scripture. We kicked this format off last Saturday, with John introducing us to his approach to mental health with reference to Vedanta, as well as talking about dispassion in more general terms. This was followed on Sunday with my talk addressing guna management, qualifications and values.  Both sessions were very productive, with excellent audience participation and feedback. 

However, we decided that holding two separate online seminars every week is too much – it will lead to saturation, and possibly, poor attendance.  What we have settled on is alternating the two approaches. We will do so on Sundays, at the usual time. One week we will hold more technical scripture based satsangs, and the next, more lifestyle/psychologically oriented satsangs.

This coming Sunday, we will once again focus on psychological issues, and the topic will be ‘Personal Relationships’. In this session, all the Shiningworld teachers have been invited to join in, though not all can make it this week. The idea is that this will be a collaborative effort. We also encourage anyone who has a question or a contribution to make, to do so as well. We believe that collectively we can offer many valuable insights that will benefit everyone. 

To read John’s post for this Sunday, you can access it on Shiningworld website, under Satsangs: https://shiningworld.com/healthy-personal-relationships-part-1/. We will have several other posts from Ramji and me as well as other Shiningworld teachers on topic before this Sunday.

Much love, 

Sundari and Ramji

What is Vedanta’s ‘real’ take on relationships?  I have read your book, the Yoga of Relationships, and benefitted a great deal from it.  But I am still confused by what the bottom line is about this, most specifically, romantic relationships. I see many people my age (65+) who have lived lives of disappointment and unfulfilled love needs. I understand the basic premise of Vedanta, the joy is never in the object, I absolutely get that chasing love, or giving in to this desire, is futile. But this need for love still persists. I guess I just have a long way to go to be free of this desire.

What intrigues me is how a free person, such as you, could be in a relationship and why?

Sundari: The difficulty of Vedanta is assimilating the both/and of the teachings.  On the one hand, it tells you upfront that you are whole and complete, nondual ever-present Existence, shining as Consciousness, and that your ‘true nature’ is Love. No-one can give this to you or take it away. You do not need to chase or depend on objects because all objects depend on you. You are what you seek. And on the other hand, the scripture tells you that there are no rules for a free person. How to reconcile being the Self with the apparent person, who does exist? Well, herein lies all the teaching.

It is a natural human need to seek love and attention, to be held, known and seen. There is nothing wrong with this, it’s beautiful. Duality makes it possible to enjoy apparent objects. But the problem with duality is that it tends to make us believe that we depend on these objects for our happiness. And that is a recipe for both joy and suffering because the joy that comes from objects actually comes from you, the Self, not the objects. No object can be relied upon because firstly they are not in your control and secondly, they are inherently unreliable – i.e., always changing. Believing joy comes from objects sets the stage for a whole chain of karma, starting with ownership, dependency, fear of loss, the inevitable disappointment when the object does not measure up, and ultimately, the grief of loss, whether through the relationship changing, ending or death.

There are ways that humans try to protect themselves from the pain of disappointment and loss, from denying their needs to elaborate means to hold onto objects. Neither work. While nonduality, the science of Consciousness, can seem to the uninformed like another (small) self-centered cop out, it isn’t. To be centered in the Self actually is to truly know the meaning of love, and what it means to love ‘another’. This includes loving the apparent person for who they are as a person, with their Isvara given nature and quirks, and as the Self.  It sounds like a contradiction but it isn’t. That does not mean it is easy.

A ‘free person’ as you put it, is an oxymoron because if you are free of the person you know you are not a person but the Self. Yet to all outside appearances, you are still, very much a person. Acting in the world, fulfilling needs and desires with feelings coming and going, the same way anyone else identified with being a person experiences life. So, what gives? Well, the difference is subtle, invisible – and huge. It is simply that as a free person, your desires are unbinding, your feelings are transitory objects known to you. You love happily and deeply, but not for happiness or depth. This import of this statement can easily be missed.

As for why I am ‘in’ a relationship – the answer is why not? A free person would not be free if they were not free to experience what is natural, meaning love. But for a free person the both/and of loving (as with any other feeling, positive or negative) is always resolved in the undeniable truth of their own Existence – capital ‘E”. The difference with love as your nature with love as a feeling is that the former does not come and go, whereas love as a feeling, does. Love as a feeling is a reflection of Love as your nature. It is the same but not.

So, while it may be true for a free ‘person’ as much as for a non-free person, that relationships end or change, the love that underpins them never does. Even if another love should appear, there are no differences in love. Love is the same, no matter where it is directed. While some people in our lives occupy a seemingly ‘special’ place, and have a certain dharma attached to them (such as monogamous love relationships), love is the same for anyone else because the source is you, the Self. For a free person, the overriding status of all relationships, even passionate love relationships, is friendship. The Self sees everyone as a loving friend.

There is a beautiful quote by CS Lewis on friendship that I love – because friend can be substituted with lover:

“Friendship is unnecessary,” he wrote, “like philosophy, like art, like the universe itself (for God did not need to create). It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival itself”

All that makes life beautiful is unnecessary to the Self, who has no need for a universe, for beauty, or to survive because it is that which makes beauty beautiful, and it is unborn. But how much poorer our lives as the apparent self, who is the Self, be, without friends, lovers, art, philosophy, or the universe itself. God does not need to create, yet we have this beautiful playground to play in. Why not enjoy it, especially when you know the playground depends on you?

Much love

Sundari

ShiningWorld.com

We have known each other for a long time and I trust you to steer me in the right direction. It took me a while to find out that my drive to overload myself with work is based on the belief that a relationship might come if I involve myself in the world more. I think I know what you will say, but please give me your opinion. I thought of asking you many times but it just didn’t seem right. I’m ready to take bad news as tough love.

James: Lovely to hear from you Keith. Here’s my opinion for what its worth. If you put yourself out in public, you will attract attention for sure.  But what will you do with it if you aren’t relaxed?  You don’t seem to realize that in worldly terms you have it made. People in your position can relax, although most don’t.  You are like the Buddha who was a dissatisfied rich prince.  Getting a relationship shouldn’t be much trouble. 

Keeping one is much more difficult, especially for self-obsessed people who have self-esteem issues.  Here’s a bit of counterintuitive advice.  You could stand to be more extroverted mentally.  Learn how to discover people’s needs better and cater to them…up to a point.  You will feel better about yourself and people will be more attracted to you.

In social situations you often seem stressed so you tend to either get aggressive to mask your insecurity or you tend to default and withdraw into your own thoughts, in which case you won’t learn what is expected of you by others and will therefore be unable to satisfy their desires which will cause tension all around.  Situations happen by God’s grace and we are meant to make a contribution if we want to please God. Relationships are opportunities to grow spiritually.

People don’t want relationships for freedom unless it is a relationship with a free person.  Most just want their needs met.  If you put pressure on yourself getting a relationship, imagine double pressure when you get one because people need to have their desires satisfied or they get cranky. 

Most of the women who would be interested in you would be interested in marriage and a family, I suppose.  You’ve got most of the circumstantial qualifcations, the looks, the brain and finacial security. So, you need to take considerable time to get to know them before you get intimate with them or you will face a lot of disappointment.  If you find joy in your spiritual practice sadhana and let a person who has the same value for spiritual practice discover it, then you then the odds of a healthy relationship aren’t bad assuming you do it with the karma yoga attitude.   

Of course, the best way to get a relationship is not to want a relationship! But you can’t fake indifference if you want something. Women will sniff it out right away. Good luck and keep me posted on your progress.

Love,
James

Sundari: Being the same as another person is not necessarily a recipe for a happy or unhappy relationship. There are many factors involved in why anyone comes into our lives, and if we have a modicum of emotional intelligence and maturity, we can accommodate where necessary. Relationships are all about accommodation, as long as we are not going against our svadharma and values to do so. Having the same values is what matters most, and at least you do both value self-inquiry, which is the most important value anyone can have.

Tom: It brings up a lot of sadness anytime I think of breaking up. A lot of paternal and maternal projections. We have been sleeping side by side for 3 years now, and I’ve become accustomed to her loving touch and cuddles. But I do believe her vasana for touch is probably quite binding and I’m only reinforcing that vasana by letting things continue. On the other hand, there is a clear benefit to touch, oxytocin, and so on, and in the end, they are just different forms of ananda emanating from that one Brahmananda.

Sundari: All jiva’s have a bunch of parental projections to deal with, it’s hard to avoid as it is the most powerful programming. This is why dealing with our childhood issues is at the heart of self-inquiry and the qualifications to develop for it. It’s human nature to want to be held and touched, most people have this desire. Jivas are primed for touch from the time we are born, and if we do not get it, we do not develop healthy psychologically, physically, or spiritually. Some abandoned babies even die if they are not held. There is nothing wrong with this desire unless you are in unhealthy bondage with the other person. If you see the other as non-different from you, that their body and yours share one guna dance, and that the bliss this brings comes from the essence of you as the one Self, bring on the oxytocin!

Tom: So, I’m not ready to give up on us just yet. There has been great learning for the jiva by sticking with it thus far. I realise that the free-spirited ego is somewhat just an excuse for a somewhat damaged/neglected child that’s been unable to look at itself in the mirror. Committed relationships really highlight the jivas undesirable vasanas as they come up again and again, there’s nowhere to hide. As opposed to friendships; when the jiva sees a vasana it doesn’t like in itself, it projects it onto one friend and then indulges another friend who reflects a more desirable vasana. But it’s all good, I’m still a free spirit whatever be its maker is not so important.  We will continue enquiring openly and honestly, so then if we do part, at least it will be knowledge and not ignorance that makes the split.

But yes, thanks for points on adharma and sadness/anger. On the one hand, the relationship may well be adharmic, on the other hand, it could be Isvara asking the jiva to step up and assert itself and its values, not to become enmeshed in the story of other jivas such as parents, partners or even my very fine self.  Time will tell the truth.

As always, thanks for your time, guidance, and friendship. Keep up this great work that you do. It’s true gold.

Sundari: Thank you for the feedback., much appreciated. As I said previously, you have a good handle on the psychology of the jiva and are well aware of the pitfalls of dependence, from what you say. Mature people realize that being a ‘free spirit’ does not mean much, and there is not much freedom in it. It usually means that you are what you are rebelling against, or are too selfish to consider anyone else’s needs, or you are just plain afraid to love.

Relationships are tricky things, all come with their downsides, all come at a cost, even the best ones. There is no way around this, really, other than karma yoga, and of course, non-dual vision. Even when you know who you are, as you do, being in a relationship with someone who does not know means you gain intimacy but lose personal freedom, space, and time. When you are in a relationship with someone who has realized the Self, this tension does not arise.

This is a problem if know you are freedom as the Self, beyond time and space. In some cases, though, as a Self-realized person the cost of being in a relationship with someone who is needy and demanding, even with karma yoga, is too much. Karma yoga works perfectly to manage difficulties in relationships, but it cannot make up for one that constantly disturbs your peace of mind. Then the problem is a conflict with your svadharma and your values. If this is the case, it can usually only be solved by moving on, even if it is hard.

We know Vedantins who have eschewed having a relationship for this reason, they do not want to have to manage another person’s likes and dislikes. There is nothing wrong with choosing a life that is not focused on anybody else, living free of expectations and sovereign unto yourself, to do as you please, especially if your main focus is self-inquiry and moksa. For many true inquirers, this may well be necessary especially if there has been a tendency towards dependence.

For the dedicated inquirer, having a relationship means that you need to confront why you are in it, what binding desires are keeping you in it or driving you to seek the ‘other’. If you need to take another person’s needs, likes, and dislikes into account, often at the expense of your own, as you have found, this can be a good sadhana with the practice of karma yoga. But it can also not only seriously impact peace of mind but self-inquiry too.

That said, freedom from all accommodation is not freedom. What is overlooked by people who refuse the downsides of a relationship is that it is in accommodating your own likes and dislikes and the endurance of hardship, that satisfaction develops for the jiva. True happiness and satisfaction come only from Self-knowledge of course, but jiva happiness and satisfaction come from growth, and growth requires sacrifice.

You cannot improve you’re the jiva’s life by hoarding it, by never giving it away; there is a price to everything in life and self-protection offers no exemption. This does not mean that everyone is suited to be in a relationship, or even should be in one. Certainly, this is an area that requires tremendous honesty and objectivity, especially because of the mind’s tendency to project and deny. But it is true that if one is committed in love and not co-dependence, a relationship can bring enormous growth, even if relationships cannot give you happiness or freedom. That’s and inside job!

True freedom is freedom from our binding likes and dislikes, freedom from dependence on anyone or anything for our happiness. An independent life is one where you take care of your jiva dharma happily (whatever it is) because freedom and happiness are already assured as you are the source of both as the Self. As the Self, you are free of the jiva, and the jiva is free to be anything it wants to be, which means it is free to have a relationship or not because it is not looking for fulfillment or happiness through it.

As the jiva, much of our happiness and satisfaction in life depends on the reasons we make the choices we make. Many people are in relationships for the wrong reasons and suffer the consequences. But others confuse freedom with no responsibilities, an escape from conforming to the rat race, and the insanity of social and cultural expectations. While there is undeniably great value in not chasing objects for happiness, and in refusing to allow others to determine our values, worth, or obligations, running from sacrifice can end up being just as much of a prison as conforming to outside pressure.

A life without sacrifice is a life without growth, and such a life is empty and ultimately, boring. I said this recently in another satsang, but some of the emptiest and most narcissistic people I know are those who pride themselves on never having succumbed to societal pressure to ‘settle down’. Whatever that means. What is hidden from these people is the fear that underpins the fact that they have never faced their inability to truly give and receive love.

As stated true freedom is only found in the Self, but life is a complicated dance. It is a process of giving and taking. Though you are not the jiva, to live a fulfilling interesting life we need to reach out to life, to ‘others’, to risk giving of ourselves, to make a contribution to the whole, in some way. Maybe your relationship is your opportunity to do this.

There is no right or wrong answer to the choices we make in life, only consequences.  Everyone has their unique svadharma to follow. It is up to us to make choices based on what is true for us, and nobody can tell us what that is.  Only you will know if you are clinging to a partner through fear and dependence or holding them in the open embrace of the love that is your nature.

Much love

Sundari

John: It’s been a while. Nididhyasana continues. It was such a great year or two when I had completely refined my life according to the teachings. I was pretty high on sattva. I knew then when the renovation opportunity came along, I was inviting a lot of rajas and tamas into my life. I guess I felt that I’d been high on sattva for long enough so no harm to get back into the world and reinstate the ghostly doer. All I can say now though is that when I manage to turn this house over and get my sattvic lifestyle back in order I won’t be inclined to give it up so easily. 

Sundari: Rajas is a great energy to get things done, and sometimes we need to summon up a lot of it to tackle a big job at hand, or to get out of a tamasic bind.  But excess rajas always comes at a price, and that is a nice big tamasic slump; if it gets out of control for too long, burnout is inevitable. Not to mention that rampant rajas makes accessing sattva almost impossible.  But when rajas is subjugated to sattva, it can be a very useful energy to capitalize on.

John: So, the house and managing to maintain my longest intimate relationship thus far have been tough. I had a few months of therapy recently too which was quite helpful in terms of understanding my relationship dynamics more deeply. On the other hand, even with the karma yoga attitude, therapy can reinforce the jivas sense of livelihood. So, I’m most grateful to Isvara for presenting a therapist and taking him away again in a timely fashion. 

Sundari: Therapy has its place, but it should be a temporary means to solve a problem. The job of any good therapist is to make themselves redundant as soon as possible.

John: I have to say though that I’m seriously questioning the relationship. And I have been for a while now, mainly because my rajas/tamas levels are high and causing a lot of depression, anger, and sadness. I then project those feelings onto Helen or my mother. But in truth, I know John is angry with John for not asserting the right values and taking a stand as the Self.

It is interesting to sit quietly when the dark dog of avidya arises from his bed, to watch how it tries to bark at the flying birds of ignorance. There is enough sattva sometimes, to see how tightly woven the threads of truth and ignorance are, and to see how the whole magic show is rigged. Often, I sit with the truth of the sadness, that the ego is too ashamed to accept its own shortcomings so instead it projects it on to those closest to me, my lover, my friends, my mother. 

Thank the lord and Vedanta for revealing how the magic show works, for when I see clearly, I am free of falling down the rabbit hat. Although every now and then it is nice to let the magician have his day, and let’s face it, it’s not like I have much of a choice. 🙂

All that said, there are some fundamental differences between our jivas. I’m not sure if we bring out the best in each other. Our number 1 blessing is that we are both dedicated to Vedanta, but I question to what extent. Was her interest in the teaching a sleight of hand to pull me in? I don’t feel she takes a stand in the Self, and I find it harder to stand as the Self in the relationship, there are psychological reasons for that but best not go into them. So, what to do? Maybe one thing at a time, finish the house and take it from there.

Wishing you and Ramji lots of love and thanks for everything!

Sundari: Great email, well thought out, and written. Clearly, the knowledge is working for you. I love the analogy you used for ignorance, the barking dog, and the flying birds, so apt. It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what is transpiring for the jiva on the mithya level, and I hear the Self talking here too, objectifying the jiva.  Though I also see that the relationship trauma has thrown up some dust, as relationships are wont to do, raising the troublesome jiva spectre with all its abject misery and shame. 

I do not know your situation well enough to add much to what you say, and I am sure you do not need any more psychological input. Good for you on that score. Though I would venture to say that depression and sadness are, as I am sure you are well aware, a sure sign that something deeper is afoot. Perhaps the projection of anger onto loved ones stems from the fact that to be true to John you need to face the fact that you do not really want this relationship? Maybe the rajasic house renovation is a decoy? I don’t know, only you will know.

It often happens that when we try to make a relationship work that is not really in keeping with our svadharma and svabhava, for whatever reason, perhaps because we are mismatched and/or we don’t want to face being alone, we find fault with ourselves when there is no fault. The only fault is that the situation is not dharmic for us and causes us to behave in ways that are not in keeping with peace of mind. And this can bring up anger, which is anger at ourselves, as you rightly say (who else could it be), which is projected onto the object causing the tamasic emotional/psychological/spiritual dissonance.

When Self-knowledge is firm and we know our innate independence is what is real and true, anything that sucks us back into the turbulent waters of need and dependence is deeply troubling to the mind who knows itself to be free. This may not be true in your case, this is just my two cents worth.

Much love

Sundari

Sundari: The doer is a thought identified with the body creating a fantasy ‘person’ who believes it has control over what happens. It is the ‘part’ of you convinced it is incomplete, that seeks agency, seeks happiness. It owns people, things, experiences. The doer or ego is just another word that describes the thought that limitless Non-dual Consciousness…You…is a limited separate entity called Mary.  It is a thought that arises out of Consciousness, is made up of Consciousness, and dissolves into Consciousness with the removal of ignorance by Self-knowledge. 

When that happens, the apparent doer remains, doing continues, but the thought associated with the erroneous identification with the doer is gone. Isvara is the only doer. Doing happens as long as the body lives. The only problem with that is that as long as you believe you are a doer you are subject to duality and suffering continues.

Mary: So, I wonder about faith in the scriptures. If there is trust in the words of the scriptures, why the fear, the doubt, the indecision?

Sundari: Faith in the scripture is fundamental to self-inquiry.  Without it, self-inquiry will not work, end of story. You might as well forget about Self-inquiry without faith in the scripture. It is the most important qualification, though all the qualifications are necessary for the assimilation of the teachings. Assuming they are in place (in your case I do not believe they are) and you are totally dedicated to self-inquiry above all (are you?) and you are taught by a qualified teacher (which you are) then Self-knowledge will work. But it takes time, as I have said to you before.  You cannot rush the process.  There is no such thing as ‘instant’ enlightenment.

It is pointless railing against the mind and its programs.  Though you did not create them, the doer cannot remove them. No action taken by a limited entity can produce a limitless result or remove ignorance. Only Isvara, the scripture, can ‘do’ that. Even with all the requirements for self-inquiry, moksa only takes place through the grace of Isvara. Grace is earned, it does not fall out of the sky. It is a gift from Isvara with the application of Self-knowledge to your life as a jiva. Nothing ‘opens the way’ to liberation other than the permanent removal of the hypnosis of duality, only possible through knowledge, not experience.

Ignorance being hard-wired and highly tenacious, if the foundations for self-inquiry are not strong, and all the qualifications are not developed, you need to go back to the beginning.  We had this discussion before.  So many inquirers in the West have unrealistic expectations about how self-inquiry works, it causes a big problem and keeps them stuck. The Western mind is accustomed to quick results and does not have the innate understanding or humility that the Indian mind has regarding the rigors of self-inquiry. I can understand your impatience because suffering is very unpleasant, but you need to cultivate humility and faith in the scriptures along with all the other qualifications. There is no way around this.

Mary: There is a belief that Mary can do something better than Isvara, without Mary things will get out of control. What can be seen as lack of faith in Isvara and an attempt to save the Mary’s role.

Sundari:  This is typical of the ego’s resistance to the teachings. Of course the ego does not like them, they spell its demise. The road to freedom is not easy for the poor ego/doer, it will cling to its role as long as it can. The doer is always afraid, always worried because it is not in control of the objects or results of action. That is why the scriptures call the jiva ‘the one who worries’. In Maya, nothing is guaranteed, and nothing is what it seems.

Karma yoga does feel like death for the ego.  It is the death of illusion that there is anything to gain in this world, that we can shore up ‘future’ happiness through people or situations.  It can bring about the dark night of the soul. But with death always comes new life. Vedanta is not about destroying the ego, just reprogramming it.

Mary: I started to do the experiments that you and Ramji suggest. When a like or dislike appears in my mind, I ask myself – who likes or dislikes? And when I ask myself this question, I see the like or dislike losing its strength, disappearing.
It is amazing… 

Sundari: That is very good, keep it up.  Self-inquiry is about putting the teachings into practice with the karma yoga spirit.  The scripture is applied knowledge. Just keep at it, one thought at a time. What price freedom? Trust Isvara to remove the ignorance, place it all on the altar of karma yoga.

Mary: Then I ask myself: who is afraid of letting go of the identification with Mary? But that is a hard one… The fear does not disappear so easy…

Sundari: It is a tricky one, which is why self-inquiry requires all the qualifications for the teachings to assimilate. If everything is the Self, then the fear thought is the Self too…apparently under the spell of ignorance!  Maya makes the impossible possible.  The thing to understand that the Self is never truly under the spell of ignorance, Maya.  Maya is not real and not unreal, it is apparently real, which means, as good as non-existent. 

Mary: Then I go on: “What would it be like to be here, in Maya, not identifying with Mary? Are you not curious about that?”

Sundari: No, I am not curious about that because there is no Maya in my mind. Who would that be, ‘in’ Maya? Is Maya a place? Are you in Maya? How can Mary be in Maya if neither Maya nor Mary is real? If you are ‘in Maya’ and not identified with Mary then there is no Maya and no Mary, only you, the Self. Maya is nothing more than the hypnosis of duality. It is a superimposition onto you, the non-dual Self. Maya exists only in Mary’s mind.

This is what it is like to be free of Mary and thus of Maya: your identity as the Self is the default position of the mind and you never confuse yourself with the jiva again, not even for a second. This means: you are free of the jiva and free as the jiva. A free person as Ramji likes to say does nothing for happiness but does everything happily. The seeking is over, as is the suffering.  You are the sought.

Although a truly free person always stands out because they have such self-confidence and peace of mind, the scripture says that it is very hard to tell an enlightened person from an unenlightened person. They do not necessarily behave differently, on the outside. From the outside, the person remains as Isvara made them, with their inbuilt nature. The difference is all internal, not outwardly visible. A free person being unlimited is free to feel and do anything, or freedom would not be unlimited. There are no rules regarding the behaviour of a free person except that they will always follow dharma without fail because they are dharma, with a big ‘D’. A free person always responds appropriately in every situation. 

Enlightened people also differ in the nature of their karma. You will be able to see that their lives are simple, unemotional, drama-free, stress-free, and peaceful, no matter what is unfolding in the mithya world.  It’s not that free people do not have desires, but all desires are in line with dharma, and are preferences, not commands. Free people are relaxed, easy-going, and flexible. Isvara takes care of everything, there is no worry or anxiety about anything.

Discrimination not behavior is the mark of a free person even though a free person is no longer a ‘discriminator’. I am not sure if you have been following James’ recent talks and postings on nididhysana, they are brilliant. Perhaps this teaching is premature for you because you have not completed the first two stages of self-inquiry, manana and svrvanna. You still have a lot of work to do on the foundations and on cultivating all the qualifications.

Nididhysana is the final stage of self-inquiry, though it is not really a stage, it is actually the culmination of all the stages. It is so subtle and so important because though the conceptual jiva (Mary) must be negated in light of the teachings, the ‘eternal’ Jiva is the Self. There is no division. Satya and mithya never meet because they were never apart. So, no big shift other than knowledge. Yet, the ‘shiftless shift’ required to assimilate this is huge.

Satya and mithya are mithya.  They are a means to an end. Once the Self is known to be who you are, they are redundant because Self-knowledge means there is no jiva other than the Self. If the conceptual jiva survives Self-realization, then it needs to do nididyasana,, cleaning up residual ignorance includes seeing that the teachings that were helpful no longer apply. As long as you are discriminating between satya and mithya you are still a jiva.  As Ramji says: ‘Self-knowledge is non-discriminating “wisdom.”  “The one who knows, knows.”   That’s the end of it.” Even the discriminator is no more.

For a free person, karma yoga and nididhysana are no longer practices as such, just knowledge which spontaneously translate into how they live in this world. There is no karma yoga or nididhysana for the Self. But if there are remaining attachments and impurities in the mind, as they are for you, even if Self-Realization is firm, suffering will not end due to fructifying karma. If a Self-realized person is dissatisfied, it is because they continue to act according to their jiva program. As you know, most actions are motivated by dissatisfaction. If you are truly free of the jiva, desires are always beneficial and creative. 

Mary: As I see how I deeply identify with Mary, it shows the failure in the practice of karma yoga… I understand that karma yoga will weaken the identification with the ego, with the mind.

Sundari: There is no way to overstate the importance of karma yoga. You will not make any progress without it.

Mary: Since yesterday I am going through the exercise:

I see every movement as Isvara. Isvara eats, Isvara wakes up, Isvara rides the bike… When I identify myself with Maya or Isvara (a provisory identification) I see that Mary is not strong, the identification with Mary disappears…
And I think: there is no place for 2 identities… And what I feel when the identification with Mary temporarily disappears? Peace… The mind becomes peaceful…

Sundari: The scripture is powerful because it works to remove ignorance. Keep practicing.

Mary: And I think: being what I am: it’s a change of point of view, a change of perspective that takes place in the mind. Is there a resistance to this change? How to break the resistance?

Sundari: You asked this above and I answered it. It’s hard work Mary, and your commitment to sticking to your sadhana depends on how tired you are of being Mary, and of suffering…

Mary: I also understood that the issues that disturb me, about relationships, are nothing more than the result of my ignorance.

Sundari: Cleaning up the jiva’s karma goes hand in hand with the qualifications for self-inquiry, as we have explained many times now. You are torn because there is still a binding desire for satisfaction with your idea of a more exciting partner, as we discussed a few times now in previous satsangs. As I said in my last email to you, if you cannot resist this desire, it might be better to go into it fully. There is only one reason to be in a marriage and that is love, though qualities such as respect and friendship are as important.  The love you are seeking is not love but passion, a dangerous quest.  You may well find it, but it will burn off, and probably burn you in the process. But you are young. It may derail your self-inquiry for a while though Isvara will most likely bring you back to it, if there is enough mumuksutva.

Mary: From the point of view of the Self, there is no question to be solved…
I understand that are no solutions in mithya… But can I accept what I have already understood?

Sundari: Who ‘accepts’? If you have really understood that there are no solutions in mithya because it is not real, then you have no choice but to accept because the desire for freedom from bondage is stronger than the desire to find satisfaction in the world.

Mary: From the point of view of Jiva, who knows that Isvara is the one who ultimately decides, there is nothing to be solved either… But can I accept that Isvara is in charge, not Mary? From the point of view of the Jiva, that wants to be a Jiva, there is a problem… There would be always something better on the next corner. 

Sundari: Yes indeed, there is a problem because if you do not trust Isvara you are in deep trouble because Isvara is in charge whether Mary accepts it or not.  Resistance is futile unless you enjoy suffering. See above.

Mary: I think the central point to work on is: do I really want to be myself? It seems that the obstacle is this acceptance, decision. 

Sundari:  You are yourself Mary. Nothing changes that or gives it to you. You cannot ‘decide to be yourself because you are your Self. That is not the right question nor the central issue. 

The central issue and the right question is:

“Do I like suffering?”

Mary: When I was a child and saw a “toy” at the amusement park, I used to get furiously in line to play… When the toy started to shake and throw me from one side to the other, I used to shout: I want to get down, I want to get out… Isn’t that what’s happening here?

Sundari: That is what is happening for the ego, yes. It thinks it has so much to lose, to give up because there are still binding vasanas and the doer is alive and well. 

So, you think that the Self is a toy, something to be gained, or ‘won’? If so, you need to start at the beginning with self-inquiry because the meaning of the teachings has not assimilated.

Or put them on the shelf for now and see if the ego is right.

Much love

Sundari

Interesting turn of events. My wife of 30 years is asking me for a divorce.  Didn’t see that one coming.  Isvara just never ceases to amaze me.  Here I have really spent some serious time soul searching.  Starting to go deeper into study and meditation. Meanwhile she is having internet affairs and wants to chase love with someone new. Funny how that works. 7 years ago when I was crazy and running around chasing tail she begged me to stay. Now it’s all changed. People define love for themselves. Guess I just have to roll with the punches. Won’t say it doesn’t hurt. But at the same time I don’t have a choice.  Don’t think I’ll be doing the marriage thing again. I think I’m cured. 

Love X

Dear X 

Sometimes Isvara gives us a real uppercut.  No choice but to roll with the punches.  At the same time, the irony is hard to miss.   What goes around comes around.

Much love,

Ramji

X… Yea. I feel like it is my time to atone. Maybe now the scales can be balanced karmicly. I know one thing. I know who I am. And I don’t need to go running after love and attention to sooth insecurities. It will hurt watching her move on with another man, but I will still love her and hope she finds the happiness she is looking for. Even though I have discovered for myself that it’s an illusion, she will have to discover that for herself in time also. And in ways that have nothing to do with me.  Funny how God’s puts us together to grow with others who have the key to our growth just like we have a key theirs. At least in some aspect. 

Ramji: Yes, life is about growth.  Relationships come and go, only the Self remains.

Listening every day to the teachings, attending the seminar in Berlin means so much to me. I spoke to James about my relationship and where I stand. With the question if we love each other, I gave the answer yes, although my attention towards my partner is diminishing. I think this is because I want to share the deepest understanding in relationship. In your book you wrote about all kinds of relationships and values. The highest value of living this life in true love is my most important ‘goal’. So, I trust in the absolute ever-present Awareness. That is the only secure ‘part’.

I live about 25 years with my partner. We are very different in living life, nevertheless I fell in love with him with the understanding I had at that time.

I was spiritually active in a way of making life worthwhile, and I was often not happy and was in search for happiness.

There is kindness and we let each other free from whatever we want to do. On a respectful level. There is no talking about true love etc. Not that that is needed, still there is a wanting to share this highest value about true love. The Self. We live with ourselves in respect to each other. Well, it seems I do not anymore.

I joined a zoominar with James a few months back and there was a guy in this meeting that I came in contact with, and we were kind of curious about each other. I really don’t know why but we started to communicate and still do. It is like an attraction that is sooo “big”! I love to talk about true love and understanding. This friendship is very beautiful. This man has spoken to James and is reading your book. So beautiful to share the same understanding.

He was almost immediately “in love “. I am not. Still, I do not experience the “in love “. Or am not sattvic enough to recognize it maybe. It will come to me…

The separate Self is alert, haha. He is also so persistent about that the field has given this contact, he/me, to Us. And I get more confused about the things he says. Not trusting it. We are doing this while we both are in a relationship.

Why is this so important? My highest value is to share true love in a relationship.

At the same time, I think it might be over with my ex.

The big Q is: DO I REALLY WANT TO CHANGE MY LIFE AND LEAVE MY PARTNER AND BE WITH HIM?

Does this all make sense?

Sundari: Thanks for sharing your story and the doubts you have about what Isvara has presented for you to inquire into. It is good that you are doing so.  Yes, what you say makes sense and comes up often for many inquirers. The relationship issue boils down to a love/need issue, and it is one of the toughest ones to resolve for most people.  It is natural to want love, and it seems so natural to seek it in others.  There is nothing wrong with that, as I point out in my book.  But there is a problem if you truly are an inquirer. The entry-level requirement for self-inquiry is the realization that there is no joy in any object. The joy resides solely in you. To seek love in another is the hypnosis of duality and leads to bondage and suffering.

The whole point of self-inquiry is to free you of dependence on objects for happiness. Love relationships create the biggest obstacle here because, in samsaric relationships, dependence is built in, that is why people enter them.  Relationships from this point of view are the ultimate duality.  You say your main goal and value in life is to ‘live this life in pure love’. What does that actually mean, for you? It sounds like it means experiencing ‘true’ love in a relationship, which you feel you have not had in your current one. The same applies to this new person you have met online who is so persistent that this is ‘meant to be’’.

As the Self, you already are ‘pure love’. That is your nature, nobody gives that to you or takes it away—you cannot get more of that from anywhere. There is no need for any special condition or person to be present to experience this love ALL the time. But if the knowledge that you are the Self and not the jiva is not firm, then the mind is still under the spell of Maya, duality. The desire to seek fulfilment, to find what is missing, is still there, but disguised as a spiritual value, as in your case. There is still a separation between you and the objects of your affection. There is still the feeling that love is a feeling, something to gain, to give, a special experience. In dualistic love, desire feels like love because when its needs and conditions are met, the mind is settled and blissful.  When its needs and desires are not met, it is a veritable sea of storms. Hence the drama and suffering in so many people’s lives thanks to the unmet needs, expectations, and disillusions in relationships. 

As I say in my book, Love is not a feeling or thought.  Thoughts/feelings are just the reflection of love, they are not actually love, just like your reflection in the mirror is you but is not you.  Love as your nature means you are whole and complete and need nothing, it does not involve another at all. It is not a special experience, it is ordinary. ”Others’ are seen as the love you are. Love can be expressed as a feeling to or for ‘others’, of course, but if you know you are the Self, the subject, the object is loved for its own sake, not for how the object makes the subject feel.  Real love is free because it wants nothing and fears nothing.  It is self-satisfied, totally confident.  To share non-dual love is not really possible because it is not an object, something to get or give. You can only share something with someone if you see them as other than you. If you know you are the Self, you experience nondual love with everyone all the time regardless of whether they love in the same way because everyone is the Self.  It is not a sharing as such, it is just what nondual love is and does. You are the same love, the Self.

Having said that, I understand the desire for the special experience of loving someone who understands you and is of similar mind. It is a longing many spiritual people have. I cannot imagine being with someone who is not Self-actualized because there is zero need for anyone to share my life. A person who loves dualistically is full of needs and expectations, which would not work with me who has none. I see no purpose to working that hard just to have someone in my life, there is nothing to gain, I need from the world. I can only be with someone who knows they are the Self and James feels the same, that is why we say that a nondual relationship is a ‘non-relationship’.

From the jiva perspective, it seems like there are two of us, both with our jiva programs.  That is so, but we are not identified with our jiva, even though we have the freedom to be a jiva because we are free OF it.  We are the Self, that is our identity, no fine print. How can the Self be in a relationship if there is only the Self? But not everyone is ready for or comfortable with that kind of freedom that non-dual love is, though many in the spiritual world claim to want it above all else, such as you do. But they are not aware of what it entails because they are not free of the jiva yet. They are still attached to its needs because they still have residual issues around the love need, so the jiva keeps tripping them up and prevents them from fully accessing Self-knowledge. If they actually had to experience non-dual love, they may not know what it is or how to cope with it because there is nothing to hook onto. Non-dual love can even seem cold and unfeeling to the uninitiated, though it is anything but that.

It sounds like your current partner has not satisfied your need for love, and that need is still there.  Now you have met someone else, and it is tempting to believe that this person will fill that need. If you are both inquirers, this puts a different spin on things.  Or does it? That depends on whether or not you have dealt with the needy part of the jiva nature, and I don’t think either of you has.  Many inquirers assume that because they are inquirers they are on board with this idea, but they are far from it.  The love/need vasana is one of the deepest and most hidden in the jiva makeup; it is a universal and highly deceptive samskara.

So, regarding whether or not you should leave your steady and unexciting but true partner of 25 years for what seems to be an exciting, new, and passionate ‘true’ love interest is to answer these two questions:

What do you think you will gain that you don’t already have?

Do you believe someone else can make you happy?

What are your truthful answers to these two questions?

Right answers: Nobody can give you what you believe you do not already have. Nobody can make you happy, not permanently. This is just a fact. If you chase love in another you are looking for it where it cannot be found.

As we have said many times, most people don’t enter into or stay in relationships for freedom. They do so for emotional satisfaction, which is not necessarily the kiss of death spiritually but may well be. Relationships are samsaric preoccupations if they are based on desire and need.   Unless you are a proper karma yogi, intimate relationships create bondage, as I said above.  Entering a new relationships is only permitted in the first stage of karma yoga (sakama karma). 

In the second stage of karma yoga (nishkama karma) chasing a relationship is not permitted, but not having relationships per se. In the second stage, you are presumably mature enough to stand up to your desires and dismiss them with reference to your love of Isvara, which you do whether you are in a relationship or not. It is not that there is anything wrong with relationships or having a new and exciting relationship. It is all a question of how deep your commitment is to freedom from limitation. 

But know that the risk you run if you go for it is that your self-inquiry will be derailed by an all-consuming desire. When this need is satiated, you feel so blissful because all barriers seem to dissolve and the feeling of love as your nature rushes in.  It is the highest most addictive high. The problem is that the mind deluded by duality ascribes the high to the other person without realizing the high comes from them as the Self. That is what cements the bondage to the other, so the needy vasana clings on for dear life. It is a trap sadly because it is an illusion. The love is never in the other.

I am not sure what your sadhana has been, or how much you understand about the process and methodology of self-inquiry. Maybe you do, or maybe you don’t realize that when you commit yourself to Vedanta, you are locked into a predetermined sadhana.  You are no longer the boss.  You must follow the steps for self-inquiry to bear the fruit of freedom from limitation and suffering.  The whole point of self-inquiry is to bring that wilful, self-centered ego into line with scripture, which is Isvara’s words. If the love/need vasana tail is still wagging the dog, it is important to accept that fact and follow the program of self-inquiry to the letter, assuming the desire for freedom eclipses the need for love. I have attached a satsang on the requirements of self-inquiry, in case you are not entirely clear on this very important topic.

It is good that you are sceptical about this man’s over-zealous desire, and it does not seem that you have succumbed to the pressure from him to enter into a relationship. But it is hard for many inquirers is to see love attachments for what they are without making any excuses and adjusting their desires according to Self-knowledge, not the jiva’s conditioning. As an inquirer, your life must fit into the scripture, not the other way around. It does not necessarily (though it may) require ending relationships. In your case, perhaps the most honest thing to do would be to address the karma in your current relationship before leaving it for another. If you are not happy in the relationship, why stay in it, what’s in it for you? Safety, security? As the Self, you are the only true safety and security that exists, a fact you claim to know.

If you don’t address what the issue is in your existing relationship, you will simply take the same vasanas into the next one. That is guaranteed.  Most people are in a relationship with their vasanas, not another person.  If you don’t address the vasanas, they just appear in the form of ‘another’ person.  You may be ‘happy’ with your new exciting love interest, maybe even ecstatic, for a while. But sooner or later, the same issues will arise that you had in the last relationship for the simple reason that you are in the same relationship with a different person. 

Why? Because it’s the same vasanas, just sugar coated with the veneer of spirituality. It is seeking love in another. If you truly want to live your life as the Love you are then live the understanding that YOU are what you seek.  You will never find that in another because Love is the nature of the Self.  Your true nature always endures because it is the nature of life, it is not something we must work to become, gain, or give.

As I said, there is nothing inherently wrong with relationships, it is just a question of what motivates them. What is truly the most important value to you – freedom from limitation or the bondage of need? Self-actualized people have relationships all the time. The only difference between Self-Actualized people in a relationship and jivas who need love is that Self-actualized people are never ‘in love or ”in a relationship’.  If you are ‘in’ love or ‘in’ this relationship, you will  be out of love and out of the relationship one fine day, even if you stay in the relationship. Just like you are now, in your current relationship. That is the law of karma. But, if the relationship is ‘in’ you, that is a different story altogether because then there is no need for objects, no dependence, as I said above. Desires that are not contrary to dharma are never binding. Sathya and mithya never meet and are not expected to, which is the hopeless quest of people in dualistic relationships who are looking for love/security where it cannot be found: in someone else. 

The real motivation for the attraction to this new relationship will be revealed if you answered truthfully the two questions I asked you above. Many people who haven’t worked out the love issue, go for love relationships and then look for spiritual reasons to justify them. Is that what you and your new love interest are doing? Only you can answer that. There is no quick fix to the agony of duality. Discriminating between satya (that which is always present and unchanging, you, the Self) and mithya (that which is not always present and always changing, i.e., everything other than you, the Self) is hard. It requires eternal vigilance because ignorance (duality) is so hard-wired and tenacious.

It sounds harsh, but we call the needy love vasana the “love whore” vasana, the almost zombie-like impulse to get love and attention from others. Assimilating the most primary lessons of Vedanta is difficult (the joy is not in any object) and most people are not suited for it. See this vasanas for what it is: a way to distract you and seduce you into tasting Maya’s sexy stuff just like the parable of Eve and the apple in the garden of Eden. You can taste the apple but know the cost. Everyone who wants freedom must pass this way, there is no blame.  Maya sets up the game to trap us in this way.  The only solution is the scripture, and it says to hand over the vasana to Isvara while resolutely sticking to karma yoga.

Karma yoga is your main defense. It is a kind of need-armour when the hungry need vasana pops up like an unwelcome cork in the ocean of samsara. Whack it instantly with the opposite thought: I am whole and complete and need nothing to make me happy. Do not hesitate even for a second. Hold tight to the lifeline of Self-knowledge like a deep-sea diver and keep discriminating. For self-inquiry to work and bear fruit, it must translate into every aspect of your life. It is knowledge in action taken in the karma yoga spirit. Perseverance and persistence are the name of the game when up against the formidable foe of need. 

The teachings are clear on this issue, and my book spells it out.  There is no fine print to freedom, you are either on board and committed to self-inquiry, or you are not. Clean up your karma in your current relationship, stick to the teachings, practice radical trust in Isvara and see what unfolds. There is nothing more I can say to help you though I am happy to talk to you over zoom if you still want to do so. But I cannot tell you what to do, it is a personal choice. Our brief as Vedanta teachers is to explain the scripture and to help you with how that relates to your question with reference to self-inquiry, no more.

Camille: I know that the joy is Me and that is the most beautiful gift and understanding Love is our nature How can it be possible to get it from objects? The reason for asking myself is because of the fact that the sharing of this true love is my highest value. Being on the same page in shared being, as I said before.  The fact is I am not alone yet inquiring about this. Is this maybe an opportunity from the Field. You can’t do that on your own right? 

Sundari: Yes, this is a big opportunity for growth from Isvara because deep binding vasanas are coming up out of the jiva program to be seen and understood so that they can be negated. You need help to get you through this challenging time and you have the teachings as your guide, and a teacher to unfold them for you.  This is grace and grace is earned. It is to your credit that you have trust in both. Well done, this is hard to do when such a strong desire takes residence in the mind.

Camille: Holding back to go for another relationship which is not a relationship but sharing love, is there because I want to live this Love with someone with the same understanding.  Do I miss this? Then I have to say, not really because missing would mean depending…It comes to me or not, right?

Your book says:  “I am a whole and complete being, whose nature is love. I love and respect myself and I am free to give myself totally in each moment …..”. This is where my focus is… ( not always there indeed ) 

This new friend is very persistent in being together. He is also in a relationship and wants to spend his life with me. While I hold back the thought: What would this make more beautiful.

I did not search for a new relationship and also, he did not. When I write these words, it starts to clear my mind. I don’t have to be with someone to live the highest value…that is already the case if I know what or who I am. Can we still talk about this in zoom Sundari? Life talking is maybe clearing things even better.

Thank you for your support. Vedanta will tell and you are the one, a tool, to communicate this teaching. 

Sundari: Thank you for your feedback, I am glad to be of help though I know what I impart is not easy to hear. I feel for you and the emotional dilemma you are going through.  It feels so right to give in to love when it knocks on our door, especially when we think we have not been looking for it.  You made peace with your current relationship despite what it fails to give you, and you thought you were not looking for love. Clearly, the teachings helped you with you this. But you were still unconsciously looking for love, which is why it showed up in this form. Isvara knows you are not satisfied with your current relationship and the unfulfilled desire that remains.  There is something missing. 

Your statement:

‘The reason for asking myself is because of the fact that the sharing of this true love is my highest value. Being on the same page in shared being”

That says it all.

If you were truly not looking because you know you are what you are seeking, that your nature is love and needs nothing, there would be no need to share this love with another being. It may be a preference, but it would not be a driving need. The Self needs nothing because it is full, whole, and complete. You are your highest value, and you are always available, regardless of who is or is not in your life. As a jiva and an inquirer, your highest value should be freedom from dependence on objects. From that place, you could decide to leave your current relationship because it is redundant and therefore, is no longer appropriate, i.e., no longer dharmic. Or you would remain in it with the karma yoga attitude and love your partner as the Self. Seeking would be over for you so there would be no problem, either way. 

But it isn’t, is it? There is still a longing for the “other” who will give you what is missing, and therein lies the problem.

I cannot advise you on what is right for you. as I said previously.  If you cannot say no to this temptation, then go with it fully.  Dive into it and give it your all.  Make your experience, try to remain objective.  However, as I said before, it is very good that you are sceptical and suspicious of this man’s insistence that ‘this is it!’. That is discrimination at work, activating the doubting function.  You should doubt because things in mithya are seldom what they seem.  The very fact that this man is so insistent is a warning sign of danger.  Danger of what? Of bondage, dependence. He sounds extremely needy, and remember, needy people are only really interested in getting what they want, they do not really care about you, the ‘other’, though they would swear blind that this is not true. They can come across as so charming and wonderful, but they are really like emotional vampires.

Women are so often coerced by men into thinking that they are needed by them, and they need the man. It feels good to get so much attention, to be needed, especially when one has been in a barren love-starved relationship for so long. Why is he so desperate if he is on the same page and committed to freedom from limitation, which is freedom from dependence on objects for happiness? It sounds like his pursuit of you is under the guise of fulfilling your unmet desire to share your love with a like-minded person, aka, a ‘spiritual’ person. But really, it is about filling his emotional void.

If one has never resolved the needy lustful part of the psyche, you are an emotional thief. The treasure you are after to steal is your lover’s energy and attention to gain what you feel is missing in you, to make you feel good, whole, that you matter.  As I said in my book, it is very painful for a non-needy person to remain with a needy person.  In fact, they seldom do because the needy person is only after their own needs-fulfillment.  Needy people are often narcissists with low self-esteem, and they often feel self-loathing for being so weak.

Are you really both committed to freedom? What is the ‘same page you want to be on’, which book does it come from? Is it a page in the Vedanta scripture or in the mithya book of needing objects to complete you? Vedanta says you are whole and complete and need nothing to complete you, ever. What does your book say?

Have you discussed these feelings you have for the other man openly and honestly with your current partner? And if not, why not? Don’t you think he deserves to know how you feel in as much as he probably believes you have a commitment to each other and to honesty?

Of course, I am happy to talk with you, but I cannot tell you anything different from what you already know and what I have already said.  You have to decide if going for this new relationship is dharmic for you, and if so, do the dharmic thing and clean up your karma with the man you are with FIRST. Then go into the new experience with the karma yoga attitude and see what happens.  If it fails, well, it fails. Big deal. You will have learned something. Sometimes it takes things like this to get us out of a tamasic rut. Isvara always gives us what we need, but it seldom comes in the form we expect.

I wish you well, whatever you decide.

 Camille: Thank you for your clear response. 

I think my suspicion about persistence is exactly why I hold back. 

Sundari:  Good for you Camille, that is discrimination at work as I said above.

Camille: And with my current partner, I talk about my thoughts and about us. He doesn’t know about another man. We cannot talk well with each other. I tried so many times. It is not working. You are right! I (we) have to take care of this relationship and work things out.   I will be alone for a few weeks.  Just to be with myself, read your book and this email again. And find it out what I must take care of. But he let me be in my time to do the work. 

Sundari:  I emphasize with you because I think I know the kind of man you are married to.  So many men have not developed the ability to understand let alone be objective about their feelings, and too many women are run by them.  Men clam up and refuse to talk and women tend to get over-emotional and sometimes, irrational because they feel so frustrated.  It’s an old story. Marriage can be such a prison for this reason.  But many choose to remain imprisoned rather than face the drama that comes with leaving, of change, the unknown, and especially of being alone. The often painful journey of looking within for what is missing, instead of to another to provide it.  

It sounds like your marriage has run its course and could have passed its sell-by date a long time ago.  But who knows, maybe there is a way to work things out with him. Much will depend on how well you can communicate if you want to stay. If you are afraid to leave, ask yourself why? Are you afraid to be alone? The truth is everyone is always alone, regardless of whether they are in the ideal relationship, a bad relationship or, alone. The determining question is are you alone or ALL ONE?

Camille: I read Vedanta books (James and yours) not any other. I am committed to Vedanta.  I cannot talk about Vedanta and that is or was not a problem. It is because of the other man that my focus is gone in this relationship. Clean up the karma in this relationship seems harder than I thought. And also, How!?

Sundari:  It is excellent that you stick to the teachings and trust them because without faith in the teachings you are powerless against that needy ego.  But there could still be another book you are stuck in, the book of wanting the world to give you something you feel you don’t have. Many have this book without knowing it, even people seemingly dedicated to self-inquiry. It goes with the territory of being human in the world of duality. There is only one way to clean up our karma in any situation and that is to take the road less traveled.  It is hard, and it requires radical self-honesty and self-inquiry without self-judgment.  As you said earlier, you married this person with the knowledge you had at the time.  There is no blame, ever. Now you have grown a great deal and this relationship no longer serves you.

So Isvara sends you a curved ball in the form of this new love interest, to get your attention on what the real issue is. And the real issue has nothing to do with your husband or your new love interest.  It has to do with inquiring into the jiva Camille’s program. To see and understand what needs and desires drive her, why she suffers, to uncover the binding vasanas that limit her and are coming into view. To see the programs in light of the teaching of Vedanta.  Understanding is all that is required because nobody makes themselves the way they are.  All jivas are an Isvara guna-generated program, and freedom is not about perfecting the jiva.  Freedom is freedom from and for the jiva.  You cannot be the Self and the jiva. So, who do you identify with? The needy jiva, or the Self? You must choose, at every moment.

Moksa is the ability to discriminate satya from mithya in every moment of every day, until it becomes the default position of the mind and is automatic. You are no longer identified with the jiva as your primary identity but as the Self.  Up until then, your sadhana as a true inquirer requires that you think the opposite thought by taking a stand in Awareness as Awareness, one thought at a time, thought by thought, and surrender to and stick with the teachings to the letter. It is not easy. The childish ego wants what it wants and will not give up without a fight. Self-inquiry is radical and ruthless at this point because it has to be. It demands fearless total transparency and honesty that is why so few actually do the work required.  They use self-inquiry as a disguise, window dressing, to keep their binding desires, not to expose them to render them non-binding.

Camille:  Time to focus on what needs to be done   Sometimes the confusion is too hard to take myself on the road again.

Sundari: Yes. For the jiva cleaning up your karma may well involve some upheaval, this is true. Taking this path is the path of grace, it is the harder path, and it takes courage.  I attached a satsang for you to read that I wrote about the two paths that are always available to us.  The natural, or easy path, the path of least resistance, the path of staying in our ‘comfort’ zone and paying the price. Or taking the path of grace, the path less traveled, the one I described above.  It is your choice.  But I can tell you that the path of grace is the path of Love. The path of least resistance is the path of the slow shrinking and even death of the soul. Read the satsang attached.

Camille: Thank you so much. I understand that zoom is not necessary. I will make a donation to Shiningworld. For your time and help.

Sundari:  I am very happy to talk to you on zoom Camille.  I understand that sometimes one needs to hear the teachings, not just read them.  So, I am available if you still want to, we both are. We are happy to be of service, that is what we do, so feel free to write or talk to us.  A donation is much appreciated, thank you.

Camille: I needed that push to go on. To keep inquiry and do Karma yoga. 

Sundari: Good, that is Isvara giving you a shove, not us. We are just mouthpieces for the timeless and flawless teachings of Vedanta. Karma yoga is like emotional burnout insurance if you are doing it right.  It offers us the great gift of gratitude despite our circumstances because we get to understand how Isvara is taking care of our every worldly need and helping us live our true nature as the unlimited Self.  We get to hand over all our mental/emotional confusion and turmoil on the altar of karma yoga and to trust Isvara to take care of it and show us the way. What a deal!

Camille: You said previously;

“Many inquirers assume that because they are inquirers that they are on board with this idea, but they are far from it.  The love/need vasana is one of the deepest and most hidden in the jiva makeup; it is a universal and highly deceptive samskara.”

This is very clear to me. These words are so helpful. It seemed that I had to change my life and live this “true” life. But I am it! And that this other man came into my life, is for ‘pushing’ be towards Me.  Not that I need to change now.  I need to see what is in front of me and be honest with myself and my partner. 

Sundari: Bravo. Yes, if you want freedom the way forward is to clear up your karma, there is no other way.  To jump into another highly charged desire-filled new relationship is asking for more pain and frustration down the line. It may not be the same man, but it will be for the same desires. If peace of mind is what you want most, first things first. Take care of your karma. If this new relationship is dharmic for you, it will still be there. It is not what is important right now, it is just the catalyst for growth. Whatever happens, know that sometimes things need to break before they can mend.

Much love, and all the best

Sundari

Dear Sundari,

First of all, THANK YOU so much for that clear email. I am sure I will read it many many times again and again. Yes, I work with the guna book a lot, and now I also have the new book in German language also!

Since 2018 I do a lot to make the changes that are necessary, like sattvic food, exercising, taking long walks, get my sleep rhythm in harmony with night and day. It has really become a war now like in the Bhagavad Gita, I give the tamas a hard time and my rajas is growing, I don’t postpone like before, like you said, I act again, getting rid of the mess and the vasanas that developed with that papaji satsangs and the “I am not the doer trap” I was in for so long.

Sundari Good for you, Stand up and fight! Not paying attention to what is unfolding in our lives is the trademark of tamas, being the energy that clouds the mind. As with all the gunas, it builds on itself, so tamas begets more tamasic tamas, as opposed to sattvic tamas, and it is important to distinguish between the two because the latter is very desirable. With tamasic tamas, the best option is to immediately force yourself to do something rajasic, because you can’t easily get to sattva from deep tamas. Though we can fool ourselves that tamas is sattva when it’s not, nonetheless, sattvic tamas is very pleasant. It’s James’ predominant guna profile jivawise, which is being genuinely chilled and relaxed, as opposed to the dull, lethargic, and heavy slacker energy of pure tamas.

Derek: I also started to stay away from many relationships and persons I was always not happy with and in fact, it was the loneliness that was driving me to get in contact again.

Sundari: To stay with or seek the company of people we don’t even like is a sad statement of how emotionally and spiritually empty we are.  And the only reason for doing so is that we are identified with being a person who believes they are incomplete and must have an object to complete them. The entry-level qualification for self-inquiry is that we have understood that the joy is not in the object, that chasing objects for happiness is utterly futile. If we still think the world has something to give us, self-inquiry will not work.  As I said in my last email, it’s not that there is anything wrong with relationships or any object.  It’s the dependence on them for happiness that is the problem.

Derek: There was a click yesterday, like, what if there is nothing wrong with just being by myself.  The thought “there is something wrong to not have friends and be alone” was the one that brings all the pain. I tried to apply what Ramji said, find the thought which makes the problem.

Sundari: Excellent.  Self-inquiry is about knowledge in action. We must apply the teachings to our life.  The most important are karma yoga and mind management.

Derek: There is nothing wrong to be all to be alone in fact, it is good, I can really dive deep into Vedanta and nobody disturbs me! And It’s not my fault, Ishvara did it, I didn’t choose to be alone. So, I don’t have to take it personally and go into low self-esteem.

Sundari:  We are all alone Hendrik, because we are ALL ONE.  Being in a relationship cannot heal loneliness.  If we chase a relationship to escape our loneliness, we simply make it worse.  No object can give us what we seek, which is fullness, because all objects are value-neutral. They can make us ‘happy’ for a short while, but not permanently. The only happiness that lasts is the knowledge that you are what you seek. The joy is never in the object, NEVER!

Hendrik: And when I will get more and more sattva, the right people will also come naturally, because reality is nondual. There is no separation between me and so-called “others”, if reality is really non-dual.

Sundari:  There is no separation between you and so-called others, true. You cannot ‘get more sattva’ because sattva is the true nature of the mind. But when the mind is taken over by rajas and tamas, then it seems like we do not have any sattva.  Mind management is about bringing rajas and tamas into balance with sattva so that we can benefit from the positive side of rajas and tamas.  All the gunas have upsides and downsides, even sattva. James’ book on the gunas explains this clearly.

Hendrik: I accepted now that my svardharma is Vedanta inquiry, especially karma yoga, and to train my body in qigong (I taught 25 years tai chi and qigong in Munich) to get good health again, and I accept the job as prasad from Ishvara to bring me money, a place to sleep and food. As I see it, it is also good to develop titiksha, and the job is a good training for that. And I have become very good in Titiksha. The job has also an upside, not only a downside. It’s also a possibility to get rid of my likes and dislikes and give up my selfishness. 

That what is in front of me now is to take care of my health and do the job with the spirit of karma yoga, there is the knowledge that something different will come when the time is right. And I am not passive, I always look out for possibilities, which jobs are around, what kind of activities I would love to do, and I am also in the process of building a new website and start teaching qigong classes in Berlin. Corona came along at exactly the moment when I was planning a new class last year, and then everything was blocked by the power of Ishvara in the form of a virus.

Sundari:  Excellent.  We must understand what the Field is asking of us and adapt to what is possible and necessary always, especially in these difficult times. To do so is common sense, to go against this is futile and the cause of suffering. It sounds like you have many valuable talents and abilities which will find a new way to express themselves.  Life is a constant process of adapting to Isvara.

Derek: Thank you so much for that reply, its deep, and it’s a lot, so I will read it again and again carefully and take all the points to my heart. And thanks for the document, it’s great!

Sundari:  You are welcome, apologies for the delay in replying to you, we have been very busy lately.

Derek: There is a deep value now for iron-hard discipline, it makes me feel so good to really be a disciplined acting person, making intelligent use of my free will. There is definitive free will, maybe limited, but free will is there. 

Sundari: Yes, we do have free will as jivas or it would not be possible to achieve anything.  But ultimately, we know that as everything is Isvara and given to us, so the main thing is to hand over our life to Isvara in trust and act accordingly. When we trust Isvara, everything works out. Being disciplined means being a disciple unto oneself, the Self. It is not about forcing the mind to do what it does not want to do, though it may require that sometimes to get out of tamas.  It is the wise way to respond to the logic of Existence, in every moment of every day, thought by thought. 

Derek: For me, speaking as a jiva, the “I am not the doer story” is finished thanks to Ramjis Vedanta. I am a doer again now, more than 100%! 

Sundari:  We will all be doers until the moment we close our eyes for the last time in this life.  There is no way to change that. Karma yoga sannyas is about negating the idea of doership, not the actual doing.  This positively affects what and how we do what we do, but that does not necessarily mean we mean we change what we do unless it is adharmic.

Much Love,

Sundari

Many greetings to Ramji. You are both in my heart. I opened the site to read one or two Satsangas and, after reading Ramji’s last post, I saw at the bottom of the page the suggestion of a Satsanga written by you that caught my attention. I like your Satsangas very much. Thanks. The Satsanga is called “The Craving for Sex”. (I don’t want to bring anything erotic in this email.)

As you know, I have been experiencing an internal conflict regarding my relationship. After speaking with Ramji, writing about it, practicing karma Yoga, etc., I felt peace… But the internal conflict broke out once more two weeks ago. There’s an internal struggle… 

I use the situation to try to practice the teachings I receive through you. I write a lot in a diary, try to analyze the situation from a distance, from the point of view of the Self, and practice karma yoga. Using these tools decreases the internal pressure and helps me to have lucidity. 

I have seen many things about how my Jiva is positioned in relationships, patterns that are repeated … It has been a painful process, but very rich. I think it is a necessary process.

Some important reflections occurred … 

1 – I always believed that I was emotionally dependent on my husband.
Affective dependence is an illusion and is not real, so I need to practice the opposite thinking. I am already complete.

2 – I am afraid that the relationship will end, I am afraid of suffering, I am afraid of making the wrong decision. Fear is one of the roots of suffering and obscures clarity … 

I neutralize this fear as follows: If I use the right tools to see if this relationship is positive for both of us and verify that it is not positive, Ishvara will supply me with everything I need. I have nothing to fear. And here I can also repeat: I have nothing to fear, I am already complete.

3 – Attachment and fear have always been present in this relationship and perhaps in so many other relationships. And to love and to be love, in this relationship or in other relationships, these two feelings need to be abandoned.

4 – Since March I am dedicating myself to the study of Vedanta with you. When Shining World came my way, it could have brought me a lot of emotional instability, but I remained so calm and so detached in this process of migrating to Shinning World, so open to what life was bringing me, that this change did not cause me suffering. This shows me the importance of detachment. I am grateful to have thought about it this week.

Sundari: I have addressed the relationship points you bring up in the next satsang. As we have said many times, most people don’t go into or stay in relationships for freedom. They do so for emotional satisfaction, which is not necessarily the kiss of death spiritually but may well be. Relationships are samsaric preoccupations if they are based on desire and need.   Unless you are a proper karma yogi, intimate relationships create bondage. That is not to say there is anything wrong with relationships, but it is dependence of them for happiness that is the problem. I recommend you read my book The Yoga of Relationships, as it addresses all the relationship points you make here.

Sandra: At the top of my questions about my actual relationship is the sexual issue. I always had the impression that sex is not so important for me. I think that if it was, I wouldn’t have maintained my current relationship for about 10 years. But I feel sexual desire, I feel like satisfying myself sexually. This week I found myself giving my sexual desire to Ishvara and it caused me some pain. I was a little bit surprised when I offered it… 

I would like to ask you a question about sex. About that Satsanga you wrote. I also highlighted some things that called my attention to future reflections. I put it in my diary.

1 -I don’t feel that there is love between my husband and me when we have sex. I do not see involvement between us, I see it as a mechanical activity as if the two were not present, did not appreciate this meeting. I think there is no good chemistry between us. I don’t feel desired. After sex, many times, instead of feeling love, I have a feeling of frustration.

How is it possible to make sex an expression of love? Is this possible when two people don’t have good chemistry together? I don’t want to have sex without love anymore, but I don’t know where to start.

I started talking to my husband about it this week. I asked about his feelings, how is it to him, I told him in a nice way that I do not feel much desire and said also that we never felt in love, since the beginning… I asked him if that was the problem… I never felt in love… He told me that he does not see it as a problem… That we respect each other, that he loves me, that sometimes (for him) the pleasure is more intense, sometimes less, but it is ok for him. I think that he accommodates everything and that it is not really an issue for him. 

But why it is an issue for me? Why? 

I think it would be good to have some guidance. I really decided to face the situation and see what it is all about. I do not want to fear anymore. Fear is not a positive tool for someone that wants moksa. 

Whatever happens, I would like to try to go through this whole process in a mature, conscious way, learning from the situation.

Sundari: True happiness/love is not a feeling, although it seems hard to separate from feelings. Feelings are also the Self, but the Self is not your feelings. So honor your feelings for what they are and do not identify with them because they are always changing, they are objects appearing in you, the Self. Feelings are just the reflection of love, they are not actually love, just like your reflection in the mirror is you but is not you.  Love as your nature means you are whole and complete and need nothing. It does not involve another as all others are known to be the love you are, though love is expressed as a feeling to ‘others’. When Self-knowledge is firm, the object is loved for its own sake, not for how the object makes you, the subject, feel.  Real love wants nothing and fears nothing.  It is self-satisfied.  Desire feels like love because when its needs and conditions are met, the mind is settled and blissful.  When its needs and desires are not met, it is a veritable sea of storms. 

I understand your problem well as many years ago I was in a loveless marriage without sexual desire.  I was not afraid to leave and did, even though I had a two-year-old daughter to consider.  I knew that if I stayed, I would have security but would die to myself, so I had to leave. It was during the very formative years of my spiritual growth, and much like you, I did a lot of self-inquiry and examination of my motives. I knew I did not love my husband, though I respected him, he was and is a good man. At the time, I was not emotionally but financially dependent, and I knew my ex-husband would punish me for leaving, which he did.  It was hard, but I grew in the ways I needed to, and it was absolutely the right choice for me. What I realized in making the choice to leave is that there is no such thing as security in this world, neither emotional nor material.  I am my only security.

You need to examine your core values. If your marriage is not in harmony with your svabhava and svadharma (inborn nature and dharma) you cannot apply karma yoga, because it won’t work. Karma yoga is the greatest emotional and mental burnout insurance there is. It involves consecrating all action to Isvara in the spirit of gratitude, knowing that the results of our actions are not up to us. But karma yoga applied to inaction or action has no effect on the mind when we are avoiding an action required to follow dharma. Sometimes, we must do things that are hard for us, even breaking promises which will seemingly hurt others, to be true to ourselves.  Only you can know if this applies to you. Dharma is a very difficult topic to advise anyone on because we all have personal dharma that applies only to us.

Here is the breakdown on dharma:

The universal laws or dharmas are built into the nature of the Field of Existence and cannot be avoided or contravened without consequence. The results of all actions, whether through appropriate action (dharma) or inappropriate action (adharma), are called karmas.  It is our experience that “as you sow, so you shall reap.”

Although dharma is one, because reality is non-dual, it can be understood in three ways.

1: Samanya Dharma or Universal Values are 1) moral laws governing the Field of Existence that apply to everyone personally, like non-injury, honesty, fairness, equality, etc and 2) the macrocosmic laws of physics, like gravity and thermodynamics, etc.

2: Visesa Dharma is Situational Ethics, or how the individual interprets the universal rules and applies them to their lives with regards to everything: lifestyle, diet, money, work, family, sex, marriage, how one relates to people and our environment, etc. There is some wiggle room here that can allow for justification of adharmic actions, but there is no getting away from the fact that if situational dharma contravenes universal dharma and our svadharma, it is adharma, for us.

3: Svadharma with a small “s” is an individual’s conditioning. This is the nature and the predisposition with which each person is born. To be happy the individual needs to act in accordance with his or her inborn nature (svabhava) or he or she will not be following dharma.  For instance, if it is an individual’s nature to be a business- person and live in a city, it will not work for him or her to take up farming and live in the country.

All dharmas are based on common sense and logic.  Our personal svadharma of course also includes our conditioning: our vasana load, which will be governing how we see and act on all levels. The binding vasanas must be seen and dissolved for peace of mind to be experienced.  Still, we will have a particular kind of nature that we need to be in harmony with, so unless we understand what our svabhava is, we can make decisions that cause great agitation, suffering , and discomfort to the mind and body, making peace of mind impossible.

As I said above, it is possible that on a personal level in order to be true to our svadharma, we must sometimes take actions that cause agitation and distress to ourselves or “others”.  There is no hard and fast rule here.  But again, we cannot use svadharma as an excuse to break universal dharma. If we are bound and cannot change our circumstances or situation, then we must accept that this is prarabdha karma (momentum of past actions) playing out and we attend to it as best we can with the karma yoga attitude.  You know the beautiful prayer: “Lord give me the courage to change what needs to be changed, the strength to accept what cannot be changed and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.”

As an inquirer, the freedom you are after does not require denying pleasure, so there is no problem with desiring sex per se.  The freedom you are after is freedom from dependence on objects, as you have already understood. So sex is not the problem, it is the requirement that you have of your sexual experience that is the problem. If you are truly free of the jiva, you are free to honor its nature and have great sex (or not) without being bound by it. Sex is not a valid spiritual path because the purpose is of sex is pleasure, not liberation. Pleasure never lasts but liberation does because it is your eternal nature. Yes, sex may be an important part of your life, but it should be no more important than any other basic need, food for instance. You don’t eat to get enlightened. The best attitude to sex is total dispassion, a ‘take it or leave it, all the same to me’ attitude.

But though you do have sex, you do not experience pleasure when you do. Everything is experienced in the mind.  We all have the same sex organ, and it is the mind. It can be argued that sex without love and consideration for your partner is just mutual masturbation.  The problem you have seems to be a lack of intimacy with your husband, which you relate to never have been ‘in love’ with him. True intimacy is primarily about Self-knowledge, honesty, and authenticity, not sex. Intimacy is always present when you know your nature to be non-dual love, which has nothing to do with the presence or absence of anyone in your life, whether you have sex or not, or whether you do or don’t reach orgasm. You can experience the most intense intimacy entirely alone.

So are you bored with your husband, or do you just think there should be more passion in your life? Sex is often sought by individuals who are bored with their partner and or, bored with themselves.  Sex is an interesting activity as when your desire is completely satiated, you experience the bliss of your Self directly, though most people don’t realize this and attribute the bliss to sex itself.  When this bliss punctuates periods of anxiety and/or depression, it seems to be extraordinary, even though it is an unremarkable lived experience for Self-actualized people, for whom the bliss of the Self is normal.  Sex is less exciting for Self-actualized people because the bliss of knowing who they are is constant.  Twenty-four hours of sustained pleasure day in and day out is infinitely more valuable than fleeting moments of intense pleasure sandwiched into a lifetime of perfunctory and unfulfilling activities.  

Furthermore, sustained sexual interest in a love object is a contradiction because sexual attractions are notoriously fickle. Our sexual responses are produced by hormones, which nobody controls. Strong sexual passion feels so good, but it is one of the most destructive energies known to humankind, burning everything in its path.  It only works in a relationship when it is subordinated to a solid mature love based on higher values, a passion for the truth particularly, which burns the impurities of the soul. 

However, sex is a natural urge, it goes with the territory of being human. It can be a source of much pleasure. But when the pleasure is associated with a sense of low self-esteem or incompleteness, it may become perverted and cause terrible suffering. The buddha had a good saying regarding pleasure: it is like licking honey off a blade. Dangerous, tread carefully. We can neither deny pleasure nor indulge it without consequence.

The thing to understand is that craving for sex, in your case loving, intimate, sex, is the desire for human contact, not sex itself.  What are you trying to contact? The craving itself is the issue, as craving anything—from food to the company of others—is only present when our true nature is not understood and valued. The actual source of the craving is the desire for wholeness.  In other words, it is a psychological problem that can only have a spiritual solution, meaning self-inquiry. 

As an inquirer and householder, it might be necessary to sublimate the sex vasana to render it non-binding; this kind of renunciation is to be advised if moksa is the aim and sex is a powerfully binding vasana. But this kind of renunciation is not denial. Denying or indulging the craving for (sex or anything else) never solves the craving but exacerbates it.  It is the understanding that nothing is to be gained by indulging this vasana so one makes a different choice every time the craving arises, by sublimating the desire with the opposite thought. You say you are doing this but finding it painful. The question is why.

The solution for you is to conduct a moral ‘dharma’ inventory. If you cannot be happy sexually with your husband, but there are other good reasons for you to remain in the relationship, then you have only two choices. Acknowledge that there is only one source of pleasure—your Self. Nobody gives this to you, and nobody takes it away.  It cannot be augmented or reduced by the presence or absence of a partner, be they exciting sexually or not. Commit to accepting your situation as it is, practice karma yoga and mind management. Accept the fact that your dissatisfaction is a spiritual issue and has nothing to do with your sex life or your husband.

If you cannot do this, and you know that you are not being true to yourself by staying, then you must leave him. Remember, non-injury is the highest value, and if we are not being honest with ourselves and those close to us, we are injuring both ourselves and them. 

As I said, nobody can advise you on the right course of action in this case, it is a private matter. You know what the scripture says. You cannot make Vedanta fit into your life; it can only work the other way around.  It is a question of how dharma applies to you in this situation and what your main motivation in life is.

Much love

Sundari