Sundari:  In the apparent reality or creation there are two forces: knowledge and ignorance.  Ignorance creates involution, which is the self that has identified with matter or objects, thus apparently under the spell of ignorance.  Knowledge creates evolution, the attempt of consciousness to dis-entangle itself from matter (i.e. from identification with the objects or ignorance).

Both theories of creation are explained and accepted by Vedanta, evolution, and spontaneous creation. How you see it depends on your perspective and Self-knowledge.  Direct or indirect knowledge? As with all things in Vedanta, it depends on which perspective you take, the jiva or the Self?  If you look at creation as the Self, it is spontaneous and instant—or, you could say there is no creation, only you. Nothing ever happened and there is no such thing as evolution. The Self cannot change, evolve or cause anything because there would have to be something other than it to do so, which is impossible because reality is nondual.

From the point of view of the jiva or individual, there is an apparent creation which seems to be evolving and changing. The creation teachings can be confusing because for moksa to obtain requires not only knowledge of Maya/the gunas, but the ability to discriminate between satya, that which is real, meaning always present and unchanging, and mithya (the effects of Maya on the mind), that which is not real, meaning not always present and unchanging. The creation is mithya, so it is not real, but a projection created by Maya, the power in Awareness to delude.

There is a creation because we can’t experience something that doesn’t exist, but the creation is as good as non-existent because it has no impact on the Self, nor does the Self impact on it. It seems to be real and have substance but has no actual substance.

As long as you think matter is real and you need a cause for it, then the Sat ‘aspect’ of the Self is responsible for the material creation. But as you said, matter is purely a projection.  When you dig into it, it resolves into Existence/Awareness, the sub-stratum. Sentient and inert are just teaching tools, they don’t refer to real objects in the creation.  We need them because people think they are sentient beings caught in a material world.  They aren’t.  They are only the SatChitAnanda.

The evolution theory corresponds with the creation or cause and effect theory in Vedanta, which fits in with the first stages of self-inquiry. It provisionally accepts duality, but the teachings are set up to destroy duality so take you gradually to nonduality. The main purpose of the cause and effect teaching (as with all other prakriyas adopted by the Upanishads), is not to make you believe in causation or the creation.  It is to reveal the truth of the Self as attribute-free, limitless, part-less, beginningless and endless Consciousness – and, that the creation is neither real nor unreal but has a dependent reality on you, Consciousness.  The karana karya prakriya (cause and effect proof) is meant to unfold the fact that not only is the Self limitless, but you are also non-separate from it.

Isvara, before the projection of Maya, refers to Pure Consciousness/Awareness or Brahman.  Maya is a power (shakti) that exists in Awareness or it would not be unlimited.  Once Maya is projected, Isvara operating ignorance is also referred to as Isvara, or God, the Creator, the dharmafield, the Macrocosmic mind or the Causal body.   The creation is made up of the three energies or gunas, sattva, rajas and tamas; it is projected with the emergence of the three gunas.   Sattva is intelligence, the knowledge that directs evolution (it shapes matter), Tamas is the heavy, dense substance of matter and rajas is the energy required to transform matter.  The gunas are consciousness (though Consciousness is not the gunas) and collectively they are the substance of creation.

Isvara, pure sattva operating Maya, is not evolving as it is not contaminated or influenced by rajas and tamas.  As pure sattva, Isvara is the cause of Maya, not its effects. This is the confusing part because Isvara also appears as a jiva or Subtle body and as such it is also the effects of Maya; so it is both evolving and involving. This is the semblance or Maya theory.  The effects of Maya are called mithya: i.e., that which makes the apparently real appear real. Isvara is not really the effects of ignorance; it only appears as the apparent effects in a different form. 

This is hard to understand, but what it means is that everything that is taking place in creation is happening because Isvara (the gunas) is the doer, not the jiva or Awareness.  The jiva or individual, which is the Self under the spell of ignorance identified with the objects, thinks it is the doer.  But it is the gunas that are causing everything to unfold the way it does.  The individual does appear to have limited free will, but in actual fact, this ‘free’ will is also governed by the vasanas, which in turn are governed by the gunas.  So, no-one is doing anything really.  This is the anthropic view: the creation is the way it is because it is the way it is.  No-one knows the mind of Isvara because only Isvara has all knowledge.  The individual only has knowledge of the objects it has contact with.  Isvara is running the whole dharmafield.

I don’t know if you have ever studied philosophy, but what is very interesting to me is that the essence of the Mandukya teaching was very well known, way before Socrates and his line of thinkers, way before even the Bronze age.  It was not exclusive to India by any means. The idea of the ‘one’ or the ‘Monad’ was and is a universal idea.  Here is what Parmenides (circa 515 BC) had to say about it, and he could be quoting the Mandukya:

Parmenides’ argument about Being, enunciated in his book On Nature, or On Being, of about 475 B.C.17:  ‘It is impossible, Parmenides asserted, for anything to come into Being, because it must either come from Being, in which case it already existed, or from non-Being, which is impossible, since non-Being does not exist. Similarly, nothing can pass out of existence, for it must pass either into Being, in which case it still exists, or into non-Being, which is impossible.’ End quote.

But, unlike the Indian rishis, this thinking never took off among the Greeks.  Many great thinkers during the time of and after Parmenides hated it because it sounded so nihilistic, they called the thinking ‘infinite regress’, which is when a proposition is regarded as reduced to absurdity because infinity melts down identities. When any entity “enters” infinity it loses the identity which formerly differentiated it from other entities.  In infinity everything is everything. The proposition which becomes entangled in infinite regress is no longer just itself; it has passed beyond the Law of Identity, and dichotomies such as true and false (duality) no longer apply to it. It destroys duality and with it, the ego’s sense of self, so of course, it is frightening for minds that are not qualified or have not assimilated the truth that there is nothing in this world to gain.  Hence, the importance of qualifications.

James says that the cause and effect teaching is a set up because once you have understood and assimilated that you are the Self and the Self never undergoes any change, you are then ready for the next step, which is the non-origination prakriya, the instant projection theory. The Mandukya Karika is the most advanced and subtle of all Vedanta teachings as it explains why the cause and effect teaching is not the whole truth, but the mind must be ready to hear it. Basically, it says that if there is no creation before the creation appears and none after it is withdrawn, is there ever a creation at all?  No, there is not. For some people, it is extremely depressing news, and they can fall into ‘the void’.

If the mind is qualified, the Mandukya answers the logical question: How can Sat, Consciousness, be the basis of the material creation if it is non-dual Consciousness?  The material creation is not material.  It is a projection caused by Maya, which is not the same OR not different from Sat, Existence/Awareness.  You can’t get something out of something that is incapable of modification.  Sat is not the cause of anything. How could it be?  If it was, it would not be non-dual. The Mandukya also points out that the Self implies not-Self. 

When you know you are the Self, there is no satya and mithya for you anymore, they are just concepts/principles used to teach you that you are the Self and can be discarded. But, very importantly, at this stage mithya ‘becomes’ satya because it was satya all along.  You see everything as just ISNESS, a direct experience of Existence as your identity, the Self.  The reversal of superimposition caused by Maya that had to take place, viparaya, is reversed again. But this time, with full Self-knowledge.  When Self-knowledge is firm, you see everything as ‘real’ because it is all you, though you are not it.

As long as the inquirer understands the common identity between Consciousness, Isvara and Jiva to be Sat, the Self and this understanding allows them to discriminate that the Existence of all objects belongs to Consciousness and that all objects have a dependent existence on you, the Self, then Maya is no problem.  You understand the principles that run mithya and live free of it while enjoying it for what it is, just a play.

I hope this helps

Love, Sundari

Since your most helpful letters in the last months, a crucial piece of knowledge was not fully assimilated. In the mind yes, I knew it – but I didn’t (as odd as this sounds)! It was only in the mind. Even thinking “my” intellect can discriminate what is in the mind is a cop-out.

Sundari: As we discussed before, everything is just a thought in the mind, even the thought that your knowledge was only ‘in the mind’, or that the intellect can or cannot discriminate.  This is what makes self-inquiry so tricky – who is inquiring/discriminating if there is only the Self and the Self is not an inquirer? The ego can easily co-opt this, which is why what we call ‘enlightenment sickness’ is par for the course for most inquirers, even the ‘advanced’ ones. The reason is simple. 

The ego is the gatekeeper of any information or knowledge that enters the mind, and your personal filters/vasanas will colour it, no matter how much awareness you have of them. It can only be this way except for adhikaris.  But even then, the vestige or overlay of the jiva identity must be seen and understood in light of jnana yoga to be truly negated as only apparently, not actually, real.

You do not show the typical signs of enlightenment sickness, which usually comes with some kind of spiritual arrogance.  But not always.  It can also be there when the inquirer is humble, like you are.  It can take the form of too much doubt about what you actually do know and have assimilated. On the other hand, no matter how much you can repeat the scripture, some people have what I call an ‘ignorance set point’, and they stay outside the knowledge.  It remains purely intellectual. They mistake indirect knowledge for direct knowledge.

The ‘shift’ comes not with knowing the scripture by heart, but in the full assimilation of the understanding that you no longer need the scripture. As I said to you last time, the last stage of nididhysana, the dropping of the remnants of the teaching and the teacher, are the most subtle, and essential for moksa to obtain.  A humble, realistic mind like yours finds it quite a leap to stand fully as the Self, with full confidence in your true identity.

The intellect can discriminate because the light of Consciousness shines on it. It is a function in the mind that is necessary for meta-cognition – thinking about what you are thinking – and to discriminate satya (Consciousness) from mithya (mind/jiva). A mind without a functional qualified intellect will not assimilate Self-knowledge and be able to discriminate or ‘step out of the limitations of the mind’. 

Stepping out is not a cop out if you know that the real question is always: what is, and where is, the mind? Both are just objects appearing in me, Consciousness. Another way of looking at/naming the  seemingly personal jiva. Remember that the definition of a jiva is Consciousness plus a Subtle body.

We can substitute the word ‘jiva’ for ‘mind/intellect’. I.e., the Subtle body. As I pointed out in my recent correspondence, it is only because we have a mind/intellect as humans that we are eligible for moksa, and also, why we have so many problems.  The most successful jivas on the planet (bacteria) have neither a brain or an intellect. Animals do not have a mind and intellect either, and they in many ways have much easier lives because they do not know or evaluate as humans do, what is happening in and around them.  As stated, as much trouble as the mind/intellect give most people, we need a pure mind and fine-tuned intellect (reflective medium) to realize the Self.  

Frank: In a perverse way this is the truth: there is indeed nothing one can do to “fix Maya” (aka become enlightened) or “control Iswara”. It’s futile; I as the Jiva have really really earnestly tried to do both most of my life and it is absolutely a story of the Mad Hatter. Going a long way for nothing – except perhaps the knowledge gained along the way which was simply, “This is not working”. In hindsight (not at the time), this may lead us to Vedanta with a lot of luck.

Sundari:  Moksa is about realizing that the common identity between God and the jiva is  you, Consciousness. They are you, the knower/witness of both, but you are not them. When you know this, you have no problem with the world or the jiva, so what reason could you possible have to control Isvara or fix Maya? Neither are real, along with the jiva identity, yet both are the Self.

Frank: When I first found Vedanta or it found me, and I met James, there was this profound 100% knowing: if this is not it, then there is nothing. Like a mouse who had been through labyrinths then sees an exit with no knowledge of anything other than the labyrinth – this mouse just knows it is not “more labyrinth”. This is knowledge. 

Sundari: When you are ready, Vedanta and the teacher come to you, and you will recognize them instantly because you have always known you are the Self and not the jiva/world.  You just didn’t know that you knew or what it means. The first time round this is a megawatt realization which can keep you high for a long time.  But though you may know that neither is real, making Self-realization permanent still requires going through the process of inquiry into the jiva and the world/God.  That is what the scripture is for. As the Self, you do not need the scripture.

Frank: It is profound logic known by the mouse then structurally supported with real knowledge by Vedanta. For a mouse to then forget again and (a) go back into the labyrinth (b) explain to other mice who knew nothing else than food and traps and, like some disney escape film “I can’t explain..but its not food (whaat?) nor is it a trap (ok…) but it is also not another Dead End (“er what do you mean?”) – “look, I am really really sick of all 3 you know?” and the other mice then say “nah..look someone says there’s cheese down there let’s go!”

Sundari:  Yes, mousehood comes to an end when you get the big picture.  Making it permanent nondual knowledge is what counts. Trying to convince other mice that chasing the cheese is pointless, that there is no joy there and no escape from the labyrinth of Maya – is what is futile. Self-knowledge is the only way out of the labyrinth of mithya.

Frank: This analogy kind of explains why I have such respect for you both as teachers of Vedanta. In contemplating your words as a daily practice for the last two months I realised God was not in the picture, I can now admit this ignorance. Instead the idea of God was still of a duality higher power “up there”. But knowing now that God is everything – meaning therefore all that I see and know, therefore leaves nothing left for “me” to be –  separate to God or, for the apparent little me “to do”. I wasn’t even a co-pilot.

Sundari:  I think God was always in the picture for you, just not the nondual God.  That God is never ‘in’ the picture.  God is the whole picture and the one looking at the picture, and both are known to you, Consciousness. Yes, as the jiva you are not a co-pilot with God and do not have control of much. Even though you share the same identity as God. You are not God.  God is the Total mind/Causal Body, and jiva is the microcosmic mind/micro causal body.

Frank: Crucially I see there never was a “little me”; this re-enforced steel concrete idea is dispersing. For decades I really believed there was a me and a big God was watching and within those decades flavours of “atheism” (but I don’t like it…), “Buddhist” (are you kidding?) ricocheted. To say no to God as a duality seems like heresy, to say no to me as the Jiva rings of brainwashing. But it is not “no” to either (and I know what brainwashing is like – contrary to belief it is impossible. 

Sundari: Disidentifying with the jiva/personal identity is extremely difficult and subtle.  Isvara does not make it easy. It is a case of saying no to ignorance and the brain being rewired, i.e., ‘washed’ clean by Self-knowledge.  There is nothing wrong with duality if you know what it is, how it functions and the cost of being sucked in by it. As the Self, you are not conditioned by anything, and Self-knowledge allows the jiva to  enjoy life for what it is (temporary/zero-sum) without worry or dissatisfaction taking over the mind.

Frank: Even the best efforts of various esoteric groups or large corporates are only fragile veneers. The Jiva idea is incredibly tenacious and I can only say to all those organisations good luck with that – trying from the outside is ridiculous; Jivas grip their own apparently personal ignorance as if their lives depended on it!) instead, it has flipped – it is the closest to God I can imagine.

Sundari: So true.  The ego will defend itself to the death because it’s life does depend on it.  Allowing even a bit of Self-knowledge to take hold spells doom for it.

Frank: I am certainly not God, nor as the Jiva am I enlightened –  an oxymoron – like a stone suddenly sprouting legs and a face and creating itself as a living being (best also kept for Disney).

Sundari:  As stated, you as Consciousness are not God or the jiva, but both are you and have an apparent existence only because of you. God and the jiva are inextricably linked in the dance of mithya until nondual vision takes hold and ends personal ignorance (avidya).  The music and the duality dance end, though duality (macrocosmic Maya) is eternal and does not end when your ignorance ends.  But it no longer has the power to delude you. You are free of it. Discrimination is no longer a conscious thing, even the discriminator is no longer necessary. Discrimination is the default and automatic.  You never confuse mithya with satya again, it is not possible.

Frank: God includes now what arises in this mind and every other mind. The mind of Iswara is unimaginably big and complete (unlike my Jiva mind!). The “idea of me” deep down – that too is just a slightly more solid but still temporary apparition. This I know now, and it led me naturally again to Dharma – something I always felt as instinct—but I was tapping around in the dark. The Jiva, and all its apparent separate parts, are in and part of God.

Sundari: There is nothing that is not God, and nothing that is personal. There is only God and one jiva/world appearing as a dream in Consciousness. It’s ok (imperative actually) to be very ok with your jiva persona when you know what it is and binding vasanas are nonbinding.  Following dharma is always the way home out of any mess ignorance can still conjure for the jiva when Self-knowledge is not firm.

Frank: That I may not be able to write down what “my” purpose is (as Swadharma), or a book of rules as Dharma, is not plausible even though I so wanted both. What am I, as the Jiva, then supposed to “do”? Wave a little Red Book like in the Chinese Revolution at myself? Or study a special Blue Book given to me by a Guru or an Angel “Now I know my purpose!”?

Sundari: It does not matter what you do when you know you are not the doer, and always follow dharma.  Find something noble fand interesting for the mind to pay attention to, give and support life in whatever way it comes to you, without trying to fix anything. Leave that to Isvara, where it belongs. Love yourself, love everyone. Don’t take yourself too seriously, laugh, have fun. Your only purpose is to realize the Self and live free of the jiva program while living free as a jiva.

Frank: Both are ridiculous and impractical in the very real time complexity of Maya. Religion has its place for sure as a moral code, as do many other moral codes from school to the military to a stamp club’s codex of behavior, but they do not lead to freedom.

Sundari: Religion has its place and is a great help to worldly people, as are other moral codes.  They can also be extremely limiting and destructive of course, as we have witnessed on this planet from time immemorial with the acts of horror that are perpetrated in the name of righteousness and ‘morality’.  You have the ultimate map and out card  from all the madness. You can never be lost again.

Frank: In the last few weeks friends have called—one I had not talked to for years—with problems, always involving others. But there were two odd new things: one, they never used to call for advice. And two, while listening, the phrase from Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita echoed in my mind: “all beings follow their nature…what use is control?” 

I could see them, I could see me talking with them, the issues, the complexity playing out – and instead of launching with them into a “strategy”—I, as Jiva felt calmly helpless while knowing that this will play out and all will probably be fine. There are still actions to be done, maybe some words, but this is Iswara.

Sundari:  This is how it is interacting with ‘others’ as the Self.  You are not invested. You are not really helpless either, because though you appear as a jiva to them, you are not. You see and hear their stories, their suffering, you know there is not much you can do about it other than just listen. But because inwardly everyone does know they are the Self, someone who is seated in their true identity always brings comfort just by being present.  If there is a word or two of wisdom to impart and it is appropriate and asked for, why not give it?  But often, it is comfort enough to just pay attention with love, to just be there. 

Frank: Its a huge relief – there is more mental energy instead of mental exhaustion. To “be free” now means admitting none of what I thought was me, or attached to, or tried to control, belonged to me. 

Sundari:  It is a huge relief to be seated in this wisdom, and will vastly improve most relationships. Though some who take your un-investment as indifference, may end. When there are no longer any emotional hooks for other egos to boost their investment in their stuff, you will either be made wrong or cut off.  That’s just the way it is, so no problem.

Frank: I know I am not God nor the Jiva – this is now Self evident – even though I can feel echos in the body mind feelings saying “but this means I was never right or will never get x or y”.  Yep, that may be – but who is saying that really? (A Disney stone, that is all.). And even if I did, is that what you really “want?” You have had both and lost both before, and none helped – other than the knowledge of this fact, along the way.

Sundari:  I have said this so many times now – you are not God OR the jiva, but they are both you. Remember that as when it truly sinks in, this is where you are not only free of the jiva, you are free AS a jiva.  Live your life!

Much love

Sundari love 

with duality imposing,

yet with heart … so gently a-beating

and mind … so clearly cognising.

Of vast expansiveness,

infinity embraced in mortal humanness.

With nature transcendent

yet always immanent.

Of Wisdom, Happiness and Love compounding;

thus Eternity, Immortality, Consciousness revealing.

All ensconced in human frame.

That, we are.

That, you are.

That, I am.

What higher calling … to a life fulfilling?

With heart steadfast made … and mind re-moulded, clarified

through spiritual values pursued … the mundane, balanced and wisely used.

From Consciousness re-cognised … as with space exemplified,

unending Peace within to know … and natural harmony to friend and foe.

Such is life fulfilled … heart with joy replete … mind with wisdom’s ways complete,

A flowing equanimity … on claimed Infinity … with grasp of Reality.

Such is purposed life … the spring for tolerance of strife.

From Consciousness as Be-ing, shining … and with inspired be-coming

till of life bereft … inevitable at death,

into the Now of Eternity

as Presence pure, Awareness unconditioned, Fulfilment complete,

Sat Cit Ananda

Absolute

forever

That, we are.

That, you are.

That, I am.

Sundari:  You are most welcome, Martin.  It’s a pleasure hearing from you as you are a clear and honest thinker too. You are right, a true Vedanta teacher does not sugar coat anything because that is not helpful for the inquirer, assuming they are qualified.  If you are not ready for nonduality, you will not like this and will look for something that does not challenge the ego identity.  We tell you upfront who you are, but we also tell you what stands in the way of not only hearing that but actualizing it.  There is a very big difference between the two.

Martin: I can see more clearly that I am in a hurry to remove beginningless ignorance. Or perhaps it is ignorance itself in the form of rajas, pretending to remove itself.

Sundari: This tendency to rush once you start understanding what the nondual teachings mean is very common. Ignorance is painful and one wants to be rid of it as soon as possible.  But it’s not so easy, unfortunately.

Martin: Looking back, I recognize this same rajasic doer from my worldly life and later the Neo-Advaita phase. This tendency to rush for quick results has clearly followed me into my self-inquiry journey as well, and your response has helped me see it more clearly.

Sundari:  It is very good that you acknowledge this tendency because it can be a very big obstacle to Self-actualization.  Self-realization is a big deal for most inquirers, and with it comes the tendency to believe you are ‘done’.  But that is rarely true.  Usually, Self-realization is where the work of self-inquiry begins. The problem is always that the ego identity does not give up easily. The mind gets it, but ignorance is subtle and hardwired.

Martin: I would still like to speak with you after developing some qualifications and making the donation. However, I now understand my focus: to develop the four qualifications by cultivating sattva and reducing rajas through Karma Yoga and Tri Guna Vibhava Yoga, while continuing a steady and systematic study of Vedanta. This includes Ramji’s 300+ hours of videos, his books, and your trilogy, all without rushing. I can see that trying to force the process is itself the rajasic doer. The mind must be prepared before Self-knowledge can be assimilated.

Sundari:  You are most welcome Martin, we are here to help you in any way we can.

Martin: Finally, I deeply appreciate your book What Is the Body? I need to study it more deeply. Your integration of modern hormone theory—especially insulin management—with Tri Guna Yoga was outstanding. I have not seen Vedanta and contemporary science combined in this way before.

It also made me reflect that while much attention is given to purifying the subtle body, comparatively little is given to the gross body beyond general dietary labels (veganism & vegetarianism). Your explanation of caring for the gross body through sound scientific principles and its role in supporting a sattvic mind, was both clear and valuable.

Sundari: Thank you.  Purifying the body is a very important factor, as are all lifestyle issues. An unhealthy lifestyle or body impacts the mind, making peace of mind much more difficult.

Om

Sundari

Mike: Based on my own journey so far, what is Vedanta’s precise view of time?

Sundari:  Even though time is not real from the nondual perspective, we experience it from the jiva perspective. Without a sequential process guiding experience, life would be total chaos. Imagine if everything happened at once!

In mithya, time is the space between events/experience, which are recorded by memory, an important function of the mind. If we could not remember experiences we could neither evaluate or assimilate their meaning, nor what is going on in us and our environment. Our intellect would not be functional, and we could not make sense of our mental/emotional state. This is why memory loss is the signature of the onset of dementia.

Time as a continuum can be divided into past present and future.   The past can be divided into yesterday, last week and last year.   Each of these time periods can be further divided into smaller increments.  Which hour yesterday do you mean, 9 AM or 10 PM?.   And what minute of 9 AM are you referring to; 9:21 or 11:17?   Minutes break down into seconds and every additional unit keeps breaking down into smaller and smaller increments.   Whatever is created is not created by addition, which would increase the substantiality of the unit and give us something to talk about, but it is created by dividing concepts, aka words.   Has anything actually been created?  If there is no “first,” there is no second or third.  So, does time exist apart from the idea it exists?

Furthermore, each stage is perceived as a sequence of “now’s” – now, now, now, now, etc.   A series of nows stretches into a continuum only when you step back and reflect on it.  In the moment itself there is only “now.”  Or take Pointillism, for instance.  A single point has no dimension when you touch the paper with the pen, yet a collection of points gives rise to a pattern of measurable space.   Neither the dot nor the spatial pattern is real since both seem to be real from different points of view.  Two “reals” generates *seeming* realities but no actual reality.  Seeming realities are as good a non-existent.

Here’s one more inquiry that will give you the gift of Eternal Time.  When the world was created with a big “bang,” did time begin?   The bang shattered the undifferentiated material mass, but the next event was a scattering of the various chunks of matter throughout space, which, science tells us is still going on.   Scattering can’t happen until shattering has happened.  Just as there is no time when shattering happens, is there time during the scattering “now?”   No, because  it is impossible to determine where the shattering ended and the scattering began.   You need a third point to allow you to measure the distance between event 1 and event 2.  That event hasn’t happened, so there is no way to tell the difference between the shattering and the scattering.  If you want time, you are going to have to wait a very long time to get it.  But by that time you will be dead many times over.  Luckily, you are immortal so you can wait to find out what time it is.

Here’s another fact: time can’t begin because it isn’t real.  And if it were real it couldn’t begin either because reality is non-dual Existence shining as unborn Consciousness.  It was not shattered and scattered when the Big Bang banged because it is immutable…nothing changes it.   If nothing changes it, nothing changes you because you are immortal Existence shining as whole and complete ever-present Consciousness.   It can only be that way because reality is non-dual.  If it were a duality then you might be a mortal entity, but you aren’t.
“So what,” you say.  
“So now is eternal,” say I.  
“So?”
“So you can stop rushing about like a chicken with its head cut off, worrying if you are going to get what you want before you die.”
“Because?”
“Because there is only one immortal Self and you are it. ”   

Om and prem

Sundari

In mithya, time is the space between events/experience, which are recorded by memory, an important function of the mind. If we could not remember experiences we could neither evaluate or assimilate their meaning, nor what is going on in us and our environment. Our intellect would not be functional, and we could not make sense of our mental/emotional state. This is why memory loss is the signature of the onset of dementia.

Time as a continuum can be divided into past present and future.   The past can be divided into yesterday, last week and last year.   Each of these time periods can be further divided into smaller increments.  Which hour yesterday do you mean, 9 AM or 10 PM?.   And what minute of 9 AM are you referring to; 9:21 or 21:17?   Minutes break down into seconds and every additional unit keeps breaking down into smaller and smaller increments.   Whatever is created is not created by addition, which would increase the substantiality of the unit and give us something to talk about, but it is created by dividing concepts, aka words.   Has anything actually been created?  If there is no “first,” there is no second or third.  So, does time exist apart from the idea it exists?

Furthermore, each stage is perceived as a sequence of “now’s” – now, now, now, now, etc.   A series of nows stretches into a continuum only when you step back and reflect on it.  In the moment itself there is only “now.”  Or take Pointillism, for instance.  A single point has no dimension when you touch the paper with the pen, yet a collection of points gives rise to a pattern of measurable space.   Neither the dot nor the spatial pattern is real since both seem to be real from different points of view.  Two “reals” generates *seeming* realities but no actual reality.  Seeming realities are as good a non-existent.

Here’s one more inquiry that will give you the gift of Eternal Time.  When the world was created with a big “bang,” did time begin?   The bang shattered the undifferentiated material mass, but the next event was a scattering of the various chunks of matter throughout space, which, science tells us is still going on.   Scattering can’t happen until shattering has happened.  Just as there is no time when shattering happens, is there time during the scattering “now?”   No, because  it is impossible to determine where the shattering ended and the scattering began.   You need a third point to allow you to measure the distance between event 1 and event 2.  That event hasn’t happened, so there is no way to tell the difference between the shattering and the scattering.  If you want time, you are going to have to wait a very long ‘time’ to get it.  But by that time you will be dead many times over.  Luckily, you are immortal so you can wait to find out what time it is.

Here’s another fact: time can’t begin because it isn’t real.  And if it were real it couldn’t begin either because reality is non-dual Existence shining as unborn Consciousness.  It was not shattered and scattered when the Big Bang banged because it is immutable…nothing changes it.   If nothing changes it, nothing changes you because you are immortal Existence shining as whole and complete ever-present Consciousness.   It can only be that way because reality is non-dual.  If it were a duality then you might be a mortal entity, but you aren’t.
“So what,” you say.  
“So now is eternal,” say I.  
“So?”
“So you can stop rushing about like a chicken with its head cut off, worrying if you are going to get what you want before you die.”
“Because?”
“Because there is only one immortal Self and you are it. ”   

Om and prem

Sundari

On Karma Yoga and Compensation
In my professional life, I had stopped advocating for raises, thinking that results belong to Ishwara. However, your response suggests that Karma Yoga includes taking appropriate action, including standing up for oneself when required.

This raises some confusion for me. From the standpoint of Jnana Yoga, I understand that I am already whole and complete. If that is so, why should I seek anything, including fair compensation? Wouldn’t that imply I am still seeking fulfillment through Artha?

Or is the very notion that “I should not act” itself a form of ignorance—confusing the level of absolute understanding with transactional reality?

Sundari: Whether the world is known to be real or not, it exists and you have no choice but to transact with it.  The answer to this question, as with all questions, is: Who is transacting?  If you are transacting as a person, the answer on topics (and most things) such as this is always a matter of what is dharmic. If you are doing your work but not being properly remunerated for it, appropriate action is to speak up.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Of course, as an inquirer, you take appropriate action – speak up – but leave the results to Isvara.

Karma yoga does not mean that you do not take action.  It is your attitude TOWARDS action that counts. Yes, you are full and complete regardless of the result you get, so taking action as the Self involves no agitation, worry or stress no matter the result. It is known that all results belong to Isvara. But as you are the Self, you can also tell Isvara what you want. And since the action taken as the Self will align with what is dharmic, what you want is dharmic. There is no contradiction. Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita: ‘I am the desire that is not opposed to dharma’.

Mike: For most of my life, I have been predominantly influenced by rajas—constantly concerned about the future and what needs to be done. While this helped me achieve material success externally, it also created inner anxiety and restlessness. Even after significant achievements, such as completing my dream education, I found myself unable to pause, celebrate, or feel truly satisfied.

Sundari:  This is the typical result of too much rajas.  The backlash from so much extroversion is always worry and stress because no matter what we achieve in the world, it is never enough.  It cannot fulfil what we really want because the joy is never in the object, whatever that is. So the inevitable result of too much rajas is tamas, the feeling of burn out, dissatisfaction and incompleteness. The only solution to this conundrum is karma yoga, appropriate action surrendered to Isvara, and jnana yoga – Self-knowledge.

Mike: Certain teachings helped me manage this. A concept from Dale Carnegie—“Live in day-tight compartment”—encouraged me to focus only on the present day, essentially living from waking up in the morning until going to sleep, without projecting into tomorrow. It means sealing off the “dead yesterdays” and the “unborn tomorrows” to focus your time and energy entirely on the present 24 hours. This was quite transformative.

Sundari: Any process that helps manage the  mind (the rajas/tamas cycle) is helpful. Ultimately, all you need is karma yoga and jnana yoga, which takes care of everything related to the body/mind.

Mike: Later, teachings from Eckhart Tolle refined this further into living in the present moment—the “Now”—which he equates with consciousness. Practices like inner body awareness, which he describes as a bridge between the manifested and the unmanifested, were especially impactful for me.

However, with my growing exposure to Vedanta, I now understand that such practices may still operate within duality, as they involve experience and objects of awareness, possibly at the level of the subtle or causal body.

Sundari: Yes, this is the key realization. Tolle does not have an independent teaching, what he does teach is experience-based, therefore, based in duality. But he does help many people find some peace of mind, at least for a while. What you really want is permanent peace of mind, which only comes with nondual knowledge. See above.

Mike: Additionally, would Eckhart Tolle’s concept of inner body awareness be comparable to Upasana Yoga? From my personal experience, it has been a game changer, but I would like to understand how it fits within the Vedantic framework.

Sundari: What does Tolle mean by ‘inner body awareness’? There are not two awarenesses. There is only one Awareness and it is the knower of the so-called ‘inner awareness’.  It is by the presence of nondual Awareness shining on the mind that ‘we’ as a person are aware at all.  The problem arises when we identify with ‘inner awareness’—what Vedanta refers to as reflected awareness—as our true identity. This is what we mean when we say that Tolle does not have a teaching.  He teaches duality mixed with nonduality and causes confusion because if he knows the difference, he does not teach it.

From the Vedanta perspective, the body/mind is an object known to you, the Self. It is only apparently real, which means it is mithya, that which is always changing and not always present.  Only pure Awareness, SATYA, the witness, is always present and incapable of change.

But to make progress with self-inquiry, we do need to understand and objectify our thoughts and feelings. To do so, we first need to identify them and then unravel them with reference to Self-knowledge, which requires knowledge of the gunas.  All thoughts and feelings are guna generated, and they clearly are associated with our karma load and personality. 

This is why for self-inquiry to work, we need a purified mind. To achieve that, we need to objectively understand our programming to negate it as only apparently real. The teachings on the gunas should be life changing for you, because this teaching clarifies that although all thoughts and feelings seem so personal, they generate from the impersonal Causal body. As do all our seemingly personaly vasanas (tendencies), which are also guna-generated. 

Looked at through the lens of jnana yoga – the nondual teachings – we can at last truly render non-binding and negate the contents of our conscious and unconscious mind. This is no walk in the park, however.  Most obstacles to the nondual teachings assimilating are found here – which is why self-inquiry is an intense and lengthy process.  You need to start at the beginning, sign on to the teachings as I mentioned in my last email to you.

Both James and I cover all the whole methodology of self-inquiry as it pertains to Vedanta extensively, with particular emphasis on understanding the jiva, which is where all the ‘work’ of self-inquiry is.  Vedanta tells you upfront what your true identity is – ignorance of your true identity – and how to resolve the issue.  But we cannot do the work of self-inquiry for you, nor can we qualify you for it.  We can only help you understand what is missing and point you in the right direction with the teaching methodology of Vedanta. Self-inquiry is hard work, there is no short cut and no easy fix because the egoic jiva persona is hard wired.  Ignorance/the hypnosis of duality, is very tenacious. Again, this is why the qualifications are so important if self-inquiry is to work for you.

I can tell you are very sincere, but do not be in a hurry and jump ahead.  You will get stuck, I assure you.

If you would like to arrange a private zoom session, we are happy to oblige, by donation.

Om and prem

Sundari

Sundari: Yes indeed, that is a great mantra! 

Martin: Your last reply really allowed “me” to make a shift – or rather just shift and face the me that isn’t me, finally. It was never just about mental discrimination (which I got fairly soon) – although it brought a lot already from the knowledge itself – but the dispassion was missing – the mind, my mind is not just mental – it is loaded with anxiety even though difficult to admit: nebulous ghosts which clothe themselves with new mental arguments and portrayed themselves as “me”.

Sundari: The human mind is indeed a strange, nebulous, multilayered, problematic and complex thing. Who can say what it actually is? One thing we can all agree on is that it’s the uncertainty of what anything is, including the mind, and the uncertainty of who we really are (are we spiritual or material?!) along with the ever-changing nature of the field that is the cause of all anxiety, worry, stress.

Many people think that if the world was a better place, they would be better people. So they keep waiting in vain for the world to improve, unless they realize that the world doesn’t have anything to do with them or their issues. Otherwise, they just languish in doubt and confusion till the body stops working and the lights go off. A wasted life is not good.

Sometimes, however, people see that the world is a problem because they have problems. This realization is not necessarily an improvement because it prevents them from asking who or what they are and they remain fixated on “problems.” But this focus is useless because the one that has problems is the problem.

No human mind will ever fully understand the human mind. Even though it seem so personal, it really isn’t, so it’s impossible to fully understand because the mind originates in the Causal body. It seems to be located in the brain, but it isn’t located anywhere. Yet, the mind is our most powerful instrument, both for our redemption and destruction. No other living creature has a mind like ours because only humans have the power of self-reflection. Therein lie all our problems – and our salvation.

All other creatures are programs run completely by Isvara with no possibility of objectivity. Much harder to be born human, but no other way for moksa to obtain. Although we may think the mind is not ‘just mental’, what else could it be? Everything that occurs in it is just a thought, be it an emotion or feeling, a memory, a dream – whatever. 

The mind is a function of the Subtle body and cannot be separated from all the other functions, such as the intellect or buddhi, memory – chitta, the I sense or ego – ahamkara (when the mind is identified with action or the enjoyer of pleasure and pain), the 5 gross organs of knowledge/perception – jnana indriyas (eyes, ears, mouth, nose, skin) and five subtle instruments of knowledge/perception, (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching), the five gross organs of action – karma indriyas (speech, hands, legs, anus, genitals) and the 5 physiological functions or prana (respiration, circulation, evacuation, digestion/assimilation and ejecting Subtle body at death, udana.

For most, the hardest thing to understand is that you are not the mind or intellect. Since you can see the mind and thoughts ‘in’ the mind, you are not the mind or your thoughts. You are the one who “sees” the mind/thoughts. Self-inquiry is isolating the “seer” as Self/Awareness from the objects, or not-Self. It is futile to try to gain an empty mind or thoughtless state because the mind is Isvara’s creation and is doing what it is supposed to do and we are not in control of it. The mind is not your enemy. There is no problem with the mind except one: it thinks itself to be the doer/experiencer. There is no doer. There is just you, Awareness and thoughts appearing in you.

I know you know this, but for the sake of teaching, it’s not a bad idea to sum up the functions of the mind.

The Four Functions of the Mind

1.) It Receives Stimuli from its Environment, the Field of Existence, of which it is a part, through the five gross sense organs and subtle sense instruments, jnana indriyas. It unifies and integrates the information into one experience.  It (Isvara) decides which organ will function consciously or mechanically, which Swami Paramarthananda calls ‘the traffic cop function’.

One sense organ cannot produce five independent experiences. For example, a blind person can still smell, taste, touch and hear. The world is known by the sense organs, but the sense organs are not known by the world. The sense organs are extroverted. They generally operate outside the body. But at certain times the sense instruments perceive within the body because the body is non-separate from the five elements, i.e. the material world. Although the gross organs of perception, the eyes ears etc. are visible, the ability to hear, see, touch etc., are not.

2. Doubting Function – this function allow us to inquirer into the merits and demerits of the objects perceived by the senses. A very important function, which over or under developed is a serious impediment to a happy life and to self-inquiry. There can be no discrimination without a doubting function, but if we fall in love with our doubts, discrimination is lost.

3. Emotes – the mind  generates thoughts and feelings (feelings are always preceded by a thought) to activate the organs of action.  When the mind is in a state of desire, indecision, dithering or doubt it is called manas.  When the mind is controlled by involuntary thoughts and emotions, the intellect cannot function and suffering ensues. Constant observation of the thoughts and feelings appearing in the mind is called mano nigrahah, an essential part of self-inquiry.

4.) Modifies to Or Manages the Gunas: It modifies to the gunas, or manages them, depending on its level of Self-knowledge.

The Intellect or Buddhi:  is the cognitive part of the Subtle Body that discriminates, makes judgements, determines.  It should be in charge of the mind, not the other way around.

Martin: An elderly plumber told me once that the way they changed leaky water pipes was to pack each side with dry ice, wait for it to freeze the water inside – then they didn’t have to switch off the mains and could swap out the pipe. It’s a bit like that – discrimination and dispassion – the “ice on the pipe” – just hold them frozen temporarily long enough to discriminate as the Self.

What I thought most of “me” then apparently disappears as not me – it’s still there but the knowledge transfers “well this was never me, I just thought it was” and its harder to go back. They appear “tagged”, seen now, marked.

Sundari: Complete freedom at the point when the teaching remnants drop is tricky, which is why nididhysana is usually the longest and most difficult stage of inquiry. While it may be firm knowledge that I am the Self and not the jiva, if there is still some residual part of the jiva program operating, freedom is not that free. Even the smallest bit of ignorance has a big price tag in terms of peace of mind. A tiny bit of ignorance can and does trick the mind into identification with negative thoughts which are always projected onto others whom we see as the problem. And the result? Unhappiness, agitation, dis-ease. But there is never a problem outside of our thoughts. We (as an ego) are the problem if the jiva has sneaked back into the picture.  

Martin: If James had written a different book with the title “how to gain freedom” the provocation may have been different. Of course it would be fraught with other provocations (political, social) just like “how to gain enlightenment” was for the spiritual perhaps – but right now the “freedom” title fits. 

Sundari: It is a tricky title, and he used it deliberately to provoke debate.

Martin: I never had the affliction of the spiritual; trying to get enlightened – but the journey to freedom is no different. Every desire and fear, every action I see in my past was just that driven by ignorance of who or what I was. What is the obvious conclusion now – awareness and just that.

Sundari: Freedom comes down to one simple decision: Am I the Self or am I the jiva? I cannot be both. If I think I am the jiva I identify with its problems, I think the world and others give me problems, and I am unhappy. As the Self I simply have no problems. To make that choice is always a possibility, and making it always transforms the situation and frees me from suffering. When that choice is no longer a choice but the default position of the mind, you are free. And if the mind still plays a few tricks, you just watch it dispassionately, as a curious but unaffected observer.

Martin: Along with this is (finally) a true appreciation for God, for Isvara in a beginning context I had struggled to reconcile out from duality. As Awareness and nothing else, everything is God.

Sundari: This is a tough one for everyone, especially given the negative connotation of ‘God’ in mithya.  But one that must be mastered or moksa is not possible.  Well done!

Thank you for your love and good wishes, I hope you make it to one of our seminars here in Italy one day!

Much love

Sundari